| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Koli |
Posted - 03/11/2007 : 13:21:21
I am writing this in response to Downtown's criticism of my post (in a thread about under-rated reviews) about punk rock, and particularly about whether The Clash were exponents of that type of music. Rather than rely on my own credentials to rebut Downtown's allegations I have sought out authoritative writers and referred to their articles. I was merely a witness to The Clash's early career who happened to see them play in a disused bus garage in Leeds in 1978. I also have one or two of their albums, but I realise that doesn't make me an authority. The fact that I also went to see the Ramones, Stranglers, Boys, Runaways and quite a few other punk rock bands goes to show that I had a serious interest but doesn't prove that I have sound knowledge. Rather than do an exhaustive search of the internet I've concentrated on articles from Rolling Stone magazine. Their writers can be regarded as reasonably knowledgeable.
Allegation 1: The Clash were not a punk rock band.
In an article published on February 28, 2003, Bill Crandall wrote about the last interview Joe Strummer gave in November 2002, when former Clash bandmates - Mick Jones, Paul Simonon and Nicky "Topper" Headon - had just learned about their election to the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. Crandall writes that "That level of recognition was not common for the Clash during the five to ten years (depending on whether you count the 1985 Jones-and-Headon-less Cut the Crap album) they were a band. Although their combination of raw punk power, world beats and politically charged lyrics produced one of punk rock's greatest records, 1977's The Clash, and one of rock & roll's greatest record's, 1979's London Calling, but the Clash didn't break in the U.S. the way the Police or AC/DC did. They would have to wait for the emergence of Green Day, Rancid, the Offspring and Blink-182 a decade later to see how much they mattered to the U.S.A.
In another Rolling Stone article by Denise Sullivan (published February 27, 2002) their career is summed up as follows: "From 1976 to 1983, the Clash delivered a unique brand of rebel rock that incorporated punk, reggae and rockabilly into one explosive mix." So what they were doing was combining several different musical styles (including punk), which is what Shiv says.
In an article (published March 26, 2003) with the headline 'Joe Strummer's death put a definitive end to the band's turbulent history' Mark Binelli describes them as "legendary punk band" and describes their origins thus:
"Emerging from rough-and-tumble West London in 1976, the Clash quickly became, alongside the shorter-lived, far more outrageous Sex Pistols, the standard-bearers of British punk. But musically, the Clash took punk further than any of their peers, moving beyond three-chord primitivism to incorporate reggae, funk and even rap (the not-at-all-embarrassing "The Magnificent Seven") into an increasingly ambitious mix. The Clash drew on the same underclass disquiet as the Pistols, only instead of exorcising this rage through bratty nihilism, they channeled it into a righteous anger, from their first single, "White Riot," through later albums such as 1980's three-record set Sandinista!
In an article published on December 23, 2002, Bill Crandall also describes them as a "legendary punk band" and recounts how, the previous month, the Clash had been elected into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame for 2003 - their first year of eligibility - and Strummer had expressed a desire to regroup the band for the March 10th induction ceremony in New York. He also describes how, during the Mescaleros' November 15th show at London's Acton Town Hall, Jones took the stage with Strummer for the first time in nearly twenty years to perform three Clash songs. This is particularly poignant for me because I used to live in Acton, west London, only half a mile from the town hall.
Crandall writes that, during their five years together, the Clash blended punk, reggae and world-beat rhythms with lyrics championing racial unity and combating political oppression and became widely known as "the only band that matters." Their five proper albums - including the 1977 self-titled debut and the 1980 epic double album London Calling, both named to Rolling Stone's list of 200 "Essential Recordings" - stand as punk rock's most impressive catalogue.
I think it's possible that Americans (including Downtown?) have a false impression of The Clash's music because they didn't make a big impression in the USA during their early years when punk rock was central to their music. Crandall writes that "Although their chart success in the U.K. never translated to the U.S., the Clash did break the American Top Twenty in 1982 with the song "Rock the Casbah." That fall they toured the U.S. as the Who's opening act and played to their largest-ever audiences. The Clash's catchy three-chord bursts, political intensity and, even, Strummer's mohawk hairstyle would reach the suburbs of America to inspire future punk rockers like Green Day and Rancid."
Allegation 2: The Clash took the piss out of the Stones
I haven't seen any evidence of this, though I have seen evidence to indicate that they looked up to The Stones. In the February 28, 2003 article, Crandall recounts Strummer's answer to the following question: "What was the first rock & roll song that blew you away?"
Strummer replied: ""Not Fade Away" by the Stones. We were stuck up in school, and there was no way of getting out to get it, but I do remember the radio delivering it. The song moved like a steam train, and that was the moment when I went rock & roll forever, the moment I said, "Yeah . . . wow!" "
Allegation 3: They were just wearing the garb rather than coming from the same streets as their audience.
In the article published on February 28, 2003 Strummer is quoted as saying: "I remember writing "London's Burning" in the top room of a squat. I was crouched over an unplugged Telecaster whispering "London's burning!" so as not to disturb a sleeping person. I can remember writing "(White Man) in Hammersmith Palais" in a flat in Canonbury, all day and all night. Just bashing in a typewriter in a kitchen with a horrible fluorescent light."
Filmmaker and friend Don Letts - who made 'Westway to the World' - provides an insight into the origins of The Clash and their music. Crandall writes about him in his February 2003 article. "As DJ at the Roxy, a gathering place for the nascent punk scene in the late Seventies, Letts spun reggae while pointing his camera on the working class musicians and artists - among them future members of the Clash, Public Image, Siouxsie and the Banshees and the Slits - grooving to the underground dub sounds (Letts once compiled some of those old reggae sides as Dread Meets Punk Rockers Uptown for the Heavenly label). He went on to make Clash videos and later became an in-demand documentary filmmaker for English television.
"'Westway to the World' was conceived in 1999 as a very un-punk promotional tool to help promote the Clash catalogue and a long overdue, posthumous live album, From Here to Eternity, but there was one slight problem: "They didn't have four guys who were prepared to go and promote this whole back catalogue," says Letts. "They weren't salesmen, the Clash - they were the real deal.""
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| 15 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Koli |
Posted - 03/16/2007 : 14:30:21
This thread began with my defence of the Clash's status as a punk band, but now I find myself on the same side as those who are questioning the inclusion of other bands that commonly appear in punk compilations.
I always saw Talking Heads as new wave rather than punk. Blondie's first album features punk music, but they moved on fairly rapidly and of course ended up playing disco music. XTC punk? No, I agree they don't belong. Similarly, I never regarded Ian Dury and the Blockheads as punk; you might possibly characterise their music as a sort of 'urban folk', the forerunners of the Arctic Monkeys perhaps. (If memory serves, they were on Stiff Records along with a load of bands that emerged late in the punk era and are mostly new wave; the label did at least one tour when each artist played just a couple of songs; I caught it in Leeds.) I also have my doubts about the Buzzcocks but I may be in a minority there.
I have an early punk compliation that has on it Shake Some Action by the Flamin' Groovies. Great song, but I've never heard anything by the FGs that I'd classify as punk. |
| Shiv |
Posted - 03/16/2007 : 09:28:21
quote:
Originally posted by Koli
quote:
Originally posted by Shiv
Anyone of fan of Stiff Little Fingers? I see they are touring again.
I wasn't a great fan but loved their single 'Alternative Ulster'.
I see they're in Birmingham on 6 May, and could be tempted. I have a son in Manchester and wouldn't be surprised if he went to see them when they play there. (Numbers 1 & 3 sons are both into rock but something went wrong with the second one: he's more of a R&B and hip-hop boy.)
I don't suppose they'll make it Down Under |
| Whippersnapper. |
Posted - 03/15/2007 : 18:31:59
Interesting stuff, Beanie. Thanks!
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| Beanmimo |
Posted - 03/15/2007 : 17:13:55
quote:
Originally posted by Whippersnapper
Anyone who wants to call Talking Heads punk, go ahead, but you are missing the nuance of language which some of the rest of us feel exists between significantly different, if related, forms of music.
just listen to David Byrnes recent Album Grown Backwards to see how much of Talking Heads was him and how much was punk.
I'm with you on this one Whip. |
| Whippersnapper. |
Posted - 03/15/2007 : 16:37:15
Its well documented that Blondie were a band looking for commercial success. When they started punk was seen as the way to success but soon that changed and so did they.
Talking Heads were, from their start, following the unique musical vision of David Byrne and that integrity was far more important to them than commercial success. When I listen to 77 I don't hear punk - ok, there is alienation aplenty, but its not about "the kids" which is the central punk concept. Talking Heads is about individual alienation rather than group.
It's precisely to differentiate between bands like The Ramones and The Sex Pistols on one hand, and Talking Heads on the other, that the term "New Wave" is used for the latter (although you could also say punk is a subset of New Wave).
Anyone who wants to call Talking Heads punk, go ahead, but you are missing the nuance of language which some of the rest of us feel exists between significantly different, if related, forms of music.
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| Downtown |
Posted - 03/15/2007 : 13:58:16
Blondie and Talking Heads are great examples of punk bands that became pop groups. There's nothing wrong with that, by the way. You just have to acknowledge that at some point they stopped being punk. It would be silly to call Call Me or Heart of Glass punk, but Blondie's early appearances at CBGBs certainly were. |
| Sean |
Posted - 03/15/2007 : 08:31:25
I agree with the above two posts. I'd also suggest that Blondie wasn't punk although was certainly part of the scene at one stage.
I'd guess Virgin didn't put the absolute best-of-the-best on one album to leave room for sequels (or perhaps it was a case of opinion on what is 'best'). It's still a damn good album though. 
Haven't listened to it for ages though, not in a punk mood. I've been in a nothing-but-metal mood for ages, got some utterly-evil-sounding Enthroned on at the moment.  Punk is girlie-pop compared to that.  |
| Downtown |
Posted - 03/15/2007 : 02:51:57
The bass riff from Nirvana's Come As You Are has an uncanny resemblance to that from Killing Joke's Eighties.
That's an impressive list of artists but most of those aren't examples of their best songs. X-Ray Spex and no Oh Bondage!? That's one of the best punk songs of all time. |
| Whippersnapper. |
Posted - 03/15/2007 : 01:48:40
I don't know all these songs and artists, but XTC and Joe Jackson could not be called punk, and neither would I call Talking Heads punk (although closer). And Dr Feelgood is R&B. All punk period, but not all punk.
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| Sean |
Posted - 03/14/2007 : 23:08:56
quote:
Originally posted by Koli
quote:
Originally posted by Se�n
"The Best Punk Album In The World...Ever!" - this one is a Virgin double album (48 tracks), and is pretty much what the title says. It's first wave stuff.
This I must look out for.
Here's the Amazon link. Might be hard to find.  Here's the track list:-
1. Anarchy In The UK - Sex Pistols
2. Ever Fallen In Love (With Someone You Shouldn't've) - Buzzcocks
3. Teenage Kicks - Undertones
4. Into The Valley - Skids
5. New Rose - Damned
6. Babylon's Burning - Ruts
7. Sheena Is A Punk Rocker - Ramones
8. Sound Of The Suburbs - Members
9. All Around The World - Jam (1)
10. Another Girl Another Planet - Only Ones
11. Passenger - Iggy Pop
12. Making Plans For Nigel - XTC (1)
13. Peaches - Stranglers
14. Sex And Drugs And Rock 'n' Roll - Dury, Ian & The Blockheads
15. I Don't Want To Go To Chelsea - Chelsea
16. Denis - Blondie
17. 2468 Motorway - Robinson, Tom Band
18. Milk And Alcohol - Dr. Feelgood (1)
19. Looking After No 1 - Boomtown Rats
20. Deutscher Girls - Adam & The Ants
21. Christine - Siouxsie & The Banshees
22. Identity - X-Ray Spex
23. C30 C60 C90 Go - Bow Wow Wow
24. Public Image - Public Image Ltd.
25. My Way - Vicious, Sid
26. God Save The Queen - Sex Pistols
27. Neat Neat Neat - Damned
28. Gary Gilmore's Eyes - Adverts
29. Top Of The Pops - Rezillos
30. Dancing The Night Away - Motors
31. What Do I Get - Buzzcocks
32. Jilted John - Jilted John
33. I Am The Fly - Wire (1)
34. Mongoloid - Devo
35. Roadrunner - Richman, Jonathan & Modern Lovers
36. White Punks On Dope - Tubes
37. Blank Generation - Hell, Richard & The Voidoids
38. Marquee Moon - Television (1)
39. Psycho Killer - Talking Heads
40. Stop Your Sobbing - Pretenders (1)
41. Is She Really Going Out With Him - Jackson, Joe
42. Ready Steady Go - Generation X (1)
43. Get A Grip (On Yourself) - Stranglers
44. Shot By Both Sides - Magazine
45. Alternative Ulster - Stiff Little Fingers
46. Eighties - Killing Joke
47. Money - Flying Lizards
48. Kung Fu International - Clarke, John Cooper
I see there's also a Vol 2. |
| Koli |
Posted - 03/14/2007 : 21:15:18
quote:
Originally posted by Se�n
Koli, "This 'n That" is a trip down memory lane.
Glad to be of service.
... In fact here's a list of my punk compilations:-
"The Best Punk Album In The World...Ever!" - this one is a Virgin double album (48 tracks), and is pretty much what the title says. It's first wave stuff.
This I must look out for.
"Burning Ambitions- A History of Punk: Vol 1 & 2" - Anagram Records. Some first wave, but heaps of second wave, includes some pretty fiery obscure stuff, e.g., 'The Boys,  'The Blood', 'One Way System' etc. Excellent albums.
I really didn't think you'd have heard of The Boys. As you say, a bit obscure.
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| Koli |
Posted - 03/14/2007 : 21:09:00
quote:
Originally posted by Shiv
Anyone of fan of Stiff Little Fingers? I see they are touring again.
I wasn't a great fan but loved their single 'Alternative Ulster'.
I see they're in Birmingham on 6 May, and could be tempted. I have a son in Manchester and wouldn't be surprised if he went to see them when they play there. (Numbers 1 & 3 sons are both into rock but something went wrong with the second one: he's more of a R&B and hip-hop boy.) |
| Sean |
Posted - 03/13/2007 : 23:35:54
quote:
Originally posted by Shiv
Anyone of fan of Stiff Little Fingers? I see they are touring again.
Wow, I was a big fan of theirs, one of my first albums was Hanx. |
| Shiv |
Posted - 03/13/2007 : 23:08:32
Anyone of fan of Stiff Little Fingers? I see they are touring again. |
| Sean |
Posted - 03/13/2007 : 22:52:39
Koli, "This 'n That" is a trip down memory lane. I know about 2/3rds of those songs, and have about half of them. Some of my favourite punk albums are in fact compilations. There were some excellent punk compilations that came out in the '90s. In fact here's a list of my punk compilations:-
"The Best Punk Album In The World...Ever!" - this one is a Virgin double album (48 tracks), and is pretty much what the title says. It's first wave stuff.
"The Sound of the Suburbs" - also first wave stuff. A bit of crossover with the above, but still damn good.
"Anarchy in the UK" - more first wave stuff, again some crossover with the above.
"Burning Ambitions- A History of Punk: Vol 1 & 2" - Anagram Records. Some first wave, but heaps of second wave, includes some pretty fiery obscure stuff, e.g., 'The Boys, 'The Blood', 'One Way System' etc. Excellent albums.
"Riot City Records - The Punk Singles Collection" - second wave stuff, e.g., 'Vice Squad', 'Chaotic Dischord' and some obscure material. Also excellent. BTW, even though it's a single CD there are 30 tracks on this.
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