| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Sal[Au]pian |
Posted - 04/28/2008 : 02:55:48
... was unbelievably horrific:
http://uk.news.yahoo.com/rtrs/20080427/tts-uk-austria-abuse-62c696a.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elisabeth_Fritzl |
| 15 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Whippersnapper. |
Posted - 05/05/2008 : 16:49:45
I think we should all apologise to Baffy for quite wrongly singling out Austrians.
Let's be fair. Other German speakers do it too.
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| Sean |
Posted - 05/02/2008 : 04:42:55
quote:
Originally posted by Salopian
Here's some more evidence of how readily random people take to imprisoning others.
It's a shame they're doing it as a drama/thriller. I'd have preferred to see it as more of an historical drama, i.e., stick to the facts as much as possible. |
| Sal[Au]pian |
Posted - 05/02/2008 : 02:44:34
Here's some more evidence of how readily random people take to imprisoning others. |
| Sal[Au]pian |
Posted - 05/01/2008 : 02:10:31
Good point about the bunkers in two of the cases (especially as both of the perpetrators got government grants to build them!), but the sisters in Linz were just kept in a house (full of shit). Three years on, the oldest of those is more damaged than I anticipate any of the Frinkls to be/remain.
I still can't shake this out of my head. It's just there at the back all the time. |
| Sean |
Posted - 05/01/2008 : 01:40:40
quote:
Originally posted by BaftaBabe
Some psychologists who study aberrant behaviour like this reckon that's why there's such a rush to tag the people as monsters, other, not one of us, inhuman. Sure the acts are ... but something happened to these people to turn them into sociopaths and psychopaths.
Psychopathy has been studied for a long time. And it does actually make sense to brand psychopaths as monsters, they're simply 'normal' human beings who've never learned empathy. Human babies aren't born with empathy, it's something that's learned, and for whatever reasons (it's commonly believed to be a blend of nature and nurture) some never learn empathy. That makes them capable of doing horrible things to other people without remorse, they're emotionless predators.
BTW, many (perhaps most?) species are innately psychopathic. Reptiles, fish, insects, hyenas, lions etc. Even if you stick to mammals, I'm guessing empathy is the aberration, not the absence of it. Hence I don't see any point in feeling guilty about being a member of a species that contains a small percentage of psychopaths.
Also, the fact that Austria has had three prominent cases of basement imprisonment may be principally related to the existence of Cold War nuclear fallout shelters in Austria. I'm guessing there are very, very few underground bunkers in New Zealand capable of holding someone for a lengthy period. Perhaps if bunkers under houses were common globally then some of the rape-murder cases (that are common globally) would have been rape-imprisonment cases similar to these Austrian ones. For example, a 15 year old girl was raped and murdered and dumped in a river in NZ a few weeks ago (the likely motivation for the murder was to avoid detection), but perhaps if the killer had a soundproofed life-sustaining bunker at his disposal then she'd be in that rather than in the river. |
| Sal[Au]pian |
Posted - 05/01/2008 : 00:04:58
One only needs to look at Rwanda to accept that large proportions of the population are prepared to murder without anything approaching a good reason. Fritzl is more unusual than that, and more depraved, but perhaps larger numbers haven't done things like him simply because of circumstances (less money, no engineering knowledge, wife less of a pushover).
I have seen reports today of the children 'growling and cooing' between themselves, and having to concentrate to speak. As I'm reasonably knowledgable about language acquisition, I feel fairly confident that this is an exaggeration, or at least will readily be overcome. Their active vocabulary will be very limited, as there was absolutely no variety to their lives, and their core speech was learned from a single human being (and one who was experientially nineteen years old). However, their passive vocabulary from the television will soon get into use.
I was surprised that the five-year-old asking if the Moon was God was given as an example of their shelteredness. That seems to me the kind of question that any five-year-old might ask.  |
| BaftaBaby |
Posted - 04/30/2008 : 17:56:51
quote:
Originally posted by Whippersnapper
What I am objecting to is not sociological investigation, but the idea that Herr Fritzl should be seen as a victim of his life experiences. Whatever they were, he was and remains responsible for his actions.
I agree - but I believe it doesn't get us anywhere as a society merely to concentrate on one person's actions. Despite media hysteria, it's precisely the investigation of the wider context that has any chance of a re-evaluation of the conditions that could so warp a human being.
Honestly, I can't see where that implies I condone his actions because he's a victim. He is, of course, in a way - though to focus on that would be callow -- but that's not the point, and just doesn't get us closer to understanding. Not understanding him. Understanding us. Our society. A society which could produce someone like this.
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| Whippersnapper. |
Posted - 04/30/2008 : 17:32:35
Look, I do not having any nagging thought that, under different circumstances, I might be capable of doing equally horrible things, and, frankly, I doubt you do either, at least not with any seriousness. But if you do, then you are very different from me in that respect.
I know full well that Herr Fritzl is a human being (although this does not necessarily make him "just like us"). I am not interested in calling him a "monster", or "evil", neither of which seem to me to clarify the situation, but I am keen on locking him up for the rest of his natural life both as appropriate punishment, as deterrent and for the safety of others.
And as for trying to understand what makes a Herr Fritzl, I don't know what "born evil" really means, or how you could test the idea as any baby will have experiences so how could you tell whether his actions are the result of an inherent disposition present at birth or the result of changes which occurred due to personal experiences? Or both?
What I am objecting to is not sociological investigation, but the idea that Herr Fritzl should be seen as a victim of his life experiences. Whatever they were, he was and remains responsible for his actions.
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| BaftaBaby |
Posted - 04/30/2008 : 16:53:20
quote:
Originally posted by Whippersnapper
quote:
Originally posted by BaftaBabe
Yes, Whipper - they took the wrong path.
Yes, poor Herr Fritzl just took the wrong path in life and so really he's little more than a victim of circumstances. There but for the grace of God go I?
You may or may not be capable of "equally horrific behaviour" as you put it, but I know I'm not.
Now, now, you know that's not what I meant -- I was just trying to pre-empt some punny remark you might have made about the two words I used that ended in 'path.'
Of course Fritzl's acts are monstrous. And as to our being capable of something similar - I was careful to qualify it by implying who knows what we'd do in similar circumstances. Because we have no idea what might have produced the Fritzl who is clearly capable of such horror ... unless you believe, as I don't, that people are born evil.
Just so we're clear - nothing I've said is in any way meant to excuse what he did. But, apparently, we keep on not learning lessons about what produces this kind of behaviour in people.
I hate what the guy did. Hate it beyond words, beyond rage. All my sympathy is with the daughter and the kids. But we're never going to get anywhere near understanding how a little Austrian baby could grow up to commit these monstrous acts unless we first admit he's a human being. At some point, one just like us.
Getting angry with me, or Austria, I don't think gets us anywhere helpful.
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| Whippersnapper. |
Posted - 04/30/2008 : 16:34:16
quote:
Originally posted by BaftaBabe
Yes, Whipper - they took the wrong path.
Yes, poor Herr Fritzl just took the wrong path in life and so really he's little more than a victim of circumstances. There but for the grace of God go I?
You may or may not be capable of "equally horrific behaviour" as you put it, but I know I'm not.
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| Sal[Au]pian |
Posted - 04/30/2008 : 16:04:19
"Fritzl faces up to 15 years in jail for rape and imprisonment, according to the press."
Surely he can be gaoled for longer than that? Each rape and imprisonment should be punished consecutively, not concurrently. |
| Sal[Au]pian |
Posted - 04/30/2008 : 15:56:15
Another issue that I haven't seen raised but which a lot of people must be wondering about is whether the abuse continued into the next generation. Maybe there's some hope that it didn't. And I unfortunately cannot forget Flowers in the Attic when I wonder about the downstairs teenagers. |
| Sal[Au]pian |
Posted - 04/30/2008 : 15:52:37
quote:
Originally posted by BaftaBabe
Can you imagine -- the little boy gasped in awe when he saw the moon for the first time in his life.
It's so awful that that situation has been brought about -- but the situation itself is very moving. I don't know why I'm saying this, as it is not even a millionth of a percent justification -- I guess I want to grasp the positives.
You're so right about the them and us demonisation, but on the other hand I'm not sure there'd be much use in people recognising that this is just an aspect of human behaviour. I don't care how much hate is laden on him, even if people have indirect reasons for it. It's like the reverse of Princess Diana. |
| BaftaBaby |
Posted - 04/30/2008 : 15:40:05
I dunno - the dribs and drabs leaking out of the newsroom about this case keep raising more questions. Now the cops think there may be a link to a long unsolved murder of a young woman whose body happened to have been found close to where Mrs. Fritzl used to run a restaurant. So I can construct at least three plausible if horrific scenarios.
I guess one of the scariest things about the whole story [and all those like it -- e.g. Fred West] is the nagging thought we just - in other circumstances - might be capable of equally horrific behaviour.
Some psychologists who study aberrant behaviour like this reckon that's why there's such a rush to tag the people as monsters, other, not one of us, inhuman. Sure the acts are ... but something happened to these people to turn them into sociopaths and psychopaths. Yes, Whipper - they took the wrong path.
I'm sure we weren't evolved to live such isolated lives. Such I'm-All-Right-Jack lives. It's probably gone too far. I know I admire aplenty the more communal, extended family kind of life ... but the very thought of living like that sends me screaming in the other direction.
Poor, poor Fritzls - especially those youngsters. Can you imagine -- the little boy gasped in awe when he saw the moon for the first time in his life. Oh, those poor children. Will they every recover?
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| Whippersnapper. |
Posted - 04/30/2008 : 14:40:43
It's hard to say which would be more productive for our Austrian brothers - searching their souls or searching their cellars.
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