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Cheese_Ed 
"The Provolone Ranger"
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 Posted - 01/27/2007 : 06:45:05
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It's irreswisstable! |
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Sean 
"Necrosphenisciform anthropophagist."
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Posted - 01/27/2007 : 06:45:05
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You guys are im-epoissible. 
Edit: Wow, Cheese must've pushed the Post button 0.1 second before I did. |
Edited by - Sean on 01/27/2007 06:46:09 |
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Cheese_Ed
"The Provolone Ranger"
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Posted - 01/27/2007 : 06:47:26
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Ewwwww, identically timed cheese puns, Sean!
Paneerie.
It's late and I'm drunk doing cheese puns. Time to hit the brick-s. |
Edited by - Cheese_Ed on 01/27/2007 06:50:15 |
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GHcool
"Forever a curious character."
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Posted - 01/27/2007 : 07:26:59
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OK. I see that with the racism/nationalism debate combined with the cheese puns are winning out against my topic, which is ok with me because it seems like a consensus is forming. I think Whippersnapper probably best said what we all are thinking:
quote:
This should not be a matter of censorship. It should be a simple matter of voluntary good manners not to ask for such films to be included. They are clearly offensive titles and it seems unlikely to me that there will be any positive value in their inclusion.
I promise not add one of these titles to the database, but I won't promise not to add a review if a title gets added by someone else and I see that no harm or controversy in doing so. That's not to say that I want people to add the coon films.
As for the nationalism/racism question Salopian has a problem with, I think Muslim countries are fair game for Muslim movies for the same reasons that "Israeli" is synonymous for "Jew" in certain reviews such as "Football team Israeli bad" for Worst Jewish Football Team and "Pro Israeli?" for I Was a Jewish Sex Worker. The fact that the football team is British and the Sex Worker is American didn't stop me from voting on them and didn't offend me as a Jew or as the son of an Israeli. It is fair game because Israel proudly defines itself as a Jewish state. So why can't we deal with nations that proudly define themselves as Muslim states similarly?
I am slightly more wary about the prevalence of reviews for Muslim movies that make allusions to terrorism such as "Martyrs get 72 Virginians" for Allah in America and "Comedians who really bomb" for Looking for Comedy in the Muslim World. I voted for a handful of these even though (perhaps because) it is un-PC. It may not be fair to highlight in a review the worst, most twisted side of a centuries-old religion that a large percentage of the world's population subscribes to, but I think that Muslims world-wide have at least a partial responsibility for their image in the Western world for not unequivically speaking out against extremist radicalism and terrorism in the name of their religion. |
Edited by - GHcool on 01/27/2007 07:42:54 |
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Sean
"Necrosphenisciform anthropophagist."
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Posted - 01/27/2007 : 07:49:14
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Yeah, I won't be adding any of the 'coon' movies, but if someone makes a movie entitled:-
Ecumenical Jerusalem Gang-Bang
then I'd find it hard to not add and review it.  |
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Sal[Au]pian 
"Four ever European"
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Posted - 01/27/2007 : 08:03:58
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quote:
Originally posted by GHcool
It is fair game because Israel proudly defines itself as a Jewish state. So why can't we deal with nations that proudly define themselves as Muslim states similarly?
That means that Israeli likely implies Jewish. However, that does not mean that Jewish implies Israeli. Your being the son of an Israeli means that while of course you know all about being Jewish, you don't actually know what someone wholly non-Israeli would think. (However, for the reasons outlined below, I can nevertheless well imagine that Israel does have some real meaning for all or virtually all Jews.)
I cannot remember any particular reviews, but any referring to aspects of Israel that are historical as well as modern have a direct if distant relevance for any Jews, rather than just a loose connection. Israel is the only Jewish state and is not ethnically disconnected from any group of Jews. Almost all Jews will have some link with someone there. All of this makes the Jewish and Muslim cases different. Mecca is fine to mention for religious reasons, but mentioning specific Middle Eastern countries to refer to British-born people of Asian origin is just nonsensical - and racist.
I agree, though, that the ones alluding to bombing are even worse. They could actually fall within the remit of race-hate laws. |
Edited by - Sal[Au]pian on 01/27/2007 08:32:40 |
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Sal[Au]pian
"Four ever European"
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Posted - 01/27/2007 : 08:28:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Se�n
Ecumenical Jerusalem Gang-Bang
That reminds me that of course some people consider Eskimo to be racist, so the titles with that would if so be racist too. (Personally, I do not really go along with this. It is much more racist to refer to all Eskimos as being Inuit, since Yup'ik people are not Inuit. Also, the feeling that Eskimo is racist seems to come from the notion that it comes from eaters of raw meat, the evidence for which is rather flimsy. However, if a group maintains that a term is racist when applied to them, it is questionable whether this can be argued against.) |
Edited by - Sal[Au]pian on 01/27/2007 08:36:40 |
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GHcool
"Forever a curious character."
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Posted - 01/27/2007 : 08:39:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Salopian
quote:
Originally posted by GHcool
It is fair game because Israel proudly defines itself as a Jewish state. So why can't we deal with nations that proudly define themselves as Muslim states similarly?
That means that Israeli likely implies Jewish. However, that does not mean that Jewish implies Israeli. Your being the son of an Israeli means that while of course you know all about being Jewish, you don't actually know what someone wholly non-Israeli would think. (However, for the reasons outlined below, I can nevertheless well imagine that Israel does have some real meaning for all or virtually all Jews.)
I cannot remember any particular reviews, but any referring to aspects of Israel that are historical as well as modern have a direct if distant relevance for any Jews, rather than just a loose connection. Israel is the only Jewish state and is not ethnically disconnected from any group of Jews. Almost all Jews will have some link with someone there. All of this makes the Jewish and Muslim cases different. Mecca is fine to mention for religious reasons, but mentioning specific Middle Eastern countries to refer to British-born people of Asian origin is just nonsensical - and racist.
Not that I expect expect you to know the intricacies of world Jewry, Salopian, but I'm afraid your statement above is incorrect. A large percentage (perhaps a majority) of American and European Jews do not have any ties to the modern State of Israel (post-1948) and even fewer have ties to the holy Land of Israel (promised to Abraham). My father is an Israeli Jew, my mother is an American Jew. Nobody on my mother's side of the family is in contact with anybody in Israel, nor are they particularly religious, nor do they view Israel as their "homeland." Like my mother's family (and myself), most Jews in America are proudly assimilated into American culture. Ask a British Jew or even a French Jew and they will tell you the same thing. For these reasons, the generalizations about Jews and Israelis are as fair (or unfair depending on how you look at it) as the generalizations about Muslims and specific Muslim states. The fact that Israel is the world's only Jewish state is not a reasonable defense because you and I both know that if there were a second Jewish state in the world, that state's name would also be used in Jewish-themed reviews.
I don't want to get into politics here, but another puzzling thing about the Jewish movies are the references to the Palestinian territories such as "West Bank skank" for Jewish Sex Worker and "Wearing Gaza Strip unlucky" for Jewish Football. These reviews are certainly not offensive to me as a Jew or as the son of an Israeli, but the assertion that the Palestinian territories have a Jewish character to them is highly debatable just judging by the facts on the ground. |
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GHcool
"Forever a curious character."
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Posted - 01/27/2007 : 08:44:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Salopian
quote:
Originally posted by Se�n
Ecumenical Jerusalem Gang-Bang
That reminds me that of course some people consider Eskimo to be racist, so the titles with that would if so be racist too. (Personally, I do not really go along with this. It is much more racist to refer to all Eskimos as being Inuit, since Yup'ik people are not Inuit. Also, the feeling that Eskimo is racist seems to come from the notion that it comes from eaters of raw meat, the evidence for which is rather flimsy. However, if a group maintains that a term is racist when applied to them, it is questionable whether this can be argued against.)
Consider too that The Indian in the Cupboard is not about a Hindu. |
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Sal[Au]pian
"Four ever European"
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Posted - 01/27/2007 : 08:53:12
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quote:
Originally posted by GHcool
A large percentage (perhaps a majority) of American and European Jews do not have any ties to the modern State of Israel (post-1948) and even fewer have ties to the holy Land of Israel (promised to Abraham).
So many people have emigrated there well past 1948 that I estimated that statistically most Jews would know someone who had done so or their relatives would know someone who had done so.
quote:
nor do they view Israel as their "homeland."
I didn't say that they did. Nevertheless, in theory at least, they must partially originate from there - that's sort of the whole point of Israel, isn't it?
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Like my mother's family (and myself), most Jews in America are proudly assimilated into American culture. Ask a British Jew or even a French Jew and they will tell you the same thing.
Of course (although being proud when it comes to nationality is not really appropriate). That is neither here nor there.
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For these reasons, the generalizations about Jews and Israelis are as fair (or unfair depending on how you look at it) as the generalizations about Muslims and specific Muslim states.
No, definitely not. It definitely makes a big difference that there is only one Jewish state, and that Jews from all of the world went to live there.
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The fact that Israel is the world's only Jewish state is not a reasonable defense because you and I both know that if there were a second Jewish state in the world, that state's name would also be used in Jewish-themed reviews.
I actually still think it's wrong to use Israeli references that are not of Mecca-level significance for Jews in general in reviews for these films. However, it would certainly be much worse were there to be two countries used in this way, and it would get less and less relevant the more countries there were. Incidentally, it's also interesting that none of the Muslim reviews mention Indonesia.
quote:
I don't want to get into politics here, but another puzzling thing about the Jewish movies are the references to the Palestinian territories such as "West Bank skank" for Jewish Sex Worker and "Wearing Gaza Strip unlucky" for Jewish Football. These reviews are certainly not offensive to me as a Jew or as the son of an Israeli, but the assertion that the Palestinian territories have a Jewish character to them is highly debatable just judging by the facts on the ground.
Maybe not so much now, but weren't part of these territories occupied by Jews till recently, possibly even when those reviews were submitted? (Are some parts still occupied? I cannot remember.) |
Edited by - Sal[Au]pian on 01/27/2007 08:54:25 |
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Sal[Au]pian
"Four ever European"
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Posted - 01/27/2007 : 08:59:13
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quote:
Originally posted by GHcool
Consider too that The Indian in the Cupboard is not about a Hindu.
However, American Indian is apparently an accepted term (according to the dictionary), despite the lack of logic. Perhaps the fact that the term just came from poor geographical judgment has kept it somewhat neutral.
By the way, as I'm sure you know, plenty of Indians are not Hindus. Nepal is the world's only officially Hindu state, although plenty of Nepalis are not Hindu either.  |
Edited by - Sal[Au]pian on 01/27/2007 09:01:47 |
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GHcool
"Forever a curious character."
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Posted - 01/27/2007 : 18:52:02
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quote:
So many people have emigrated there well past 1948 that I estimated that statistically most Jews would know someone who had done so or their relatives would know someone who had done so.
I'm sorry, Salopian, but again, your estimation simply does not reflect the facts on the ground.
After 1948, the Palestinian territories were occupied by Jordan and Egypt. In 1967, Egypt started a war and Israel captured the territories. Since 1967, Israel has occupied the territories for diplomatic and security reasons too complicated to go into here, but since the 1990s, the Israelis have slowly ceded control over the territories to the Palestinian Authority. Only a biblical scholar would argue that the Palestinian territories have a Jewish character because they are part of the Land of Israel that God promised to Abraham, but a scholar would have to be mad to look at current international politics and conclude that the Palestinian territories are Jewish in character.
And, yes, I know that a large percentage (roughly 20% according to Wikipedia) of Indians are not Hindu. |
Edited by - GHcool on 01/27/2007 20:33:20 |
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Sludge 
"Charlie Don't Serf!"
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Posted - 01/27/2007 : 20:25:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Salopian
quote:
Originally posted by Sludge
Germany and France were never part of the West Indies Federation.
That would be a small difference if many people were aware of that Federation and France and Germany had never been part of the same empire, which they have, at least twice.
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Only one of the bobsledders has dreadlocks in the film - should any reference to "dread people" be deleted?
I agree that that is also inaccurate, but I do not think hairstyles are as important to people as nationalities, in general. Also, it is just inaccurate in plurality, which makes it even more minor.
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Looked at another way, if one were asked to guess which film "Trinidad and Toboggan" was about, would most modern film buffs be able to guess "Cool Runnings"?
I would think so too. This means it is not 'generic' - I did not question that.
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But I'd hate to see so many reviews, and it would be many many many reviews if you're going to go in that direction, lost in a whirl of political correctness.
I don't think it's really reasonable to compare referring to a country in question rather than another one to political correctness. One thing I hate, for example, is people using England when they are actually referring to Great Britain or the U.K. - but at least it's part of the country in question.
I'm just including the whole thing as a quote to make this thread even more massive and off the intended track.
In rethinking this while offline, it occurred to me that people I have met from Trinidad have never referred to themselves as being from "Trinidad and Tobago". So I don't think I've offended Trinidadians. But I may have offended the Tobagons.
It is vaguely possible that they share the same root word. Tobago is tied to Tobacco. Toboggan is from Algonquian (probably Micmac) - tobakun "a sled"... but perhaps these sleds resemble tobacco leaves?
The review may be offensive to the Bobsled people. I'm surprised you haven't taken up this argument.
A Bobsled is a cut-off toboggan... so the original bobsledders obviously had some disdain for the toboggan, perhaps having been sleigh-ted by tobogganers, such that they took their rage out on the toboggan.
Your comment on England vs. GB brings to mind a crazy quote from the host of America's Top 40, Casey Kasem, which was not intended to get out. He started ranting at his production crew. He was doing a lead-in (or out) of a U2 song, and said, "These guys are from England and who gives a $#!t." I leaked out through various places and ended up at the center of a huge lawsuit. I recommend giving it a listen - you can't buy it but can download it.
You may be ceding some ground in your argument when you say "...if many people were aware of that Federation". The usefulness of the review does have something to do with the collective awareness of the users. I am pretty sure that "Trinidad and Toboggan" got votes from people who are well aware that the Cool Runners are from Jamaica and not from Trinidad nor Tobago.
What I am doing though, is giving "potheads switch to snow" to Smithee because if I recall there's little, if any, emphasis on the smoking of this alternative to the Tobago leaf and your comment has led to much soul-searching over this epic film. Since one guy had dreads, I will leave "Rasta man: 'Fastah, man!'." as well is the brilliant but voteless "Movement of Jah people!" intact.
I was hoping to see Mguyx in here by now.
Enjoy the song.
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Edited by - Sludge on 01/27/2007 20:28:36 |
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Whippersnapper.
"A fourword thinking guy."
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Posted - 01/27/2007 : 21:07:48
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You know Sludge, I sometimes wonder whether you are taking this debate seriously. 
()
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w22dheartlivie
"Kitty Lover"
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Posted - 01/28/2007 : 00:35:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Salopian
However, American Indian is apparently an accepted term (according to the dictionary), despite the lack of logic. Perhaps the fact that the term just came from poor geographical judgment has kept it somewhat neutral.
By the way, as I'm sure you know, plenty of Indians are not Hindus. Nepal is the world's only officially Hindu state, although plenty of Nepalis are not Hindu either.
Not necessarily. The trend is moving quickly to use the term Native American instead of American Indian, much like the use of the word Eskimo has fallen into disfavor. Many of the Native Americans I know even further take it down to defining themselves by the actual tribal name (Cherokee, Lakota, Paiute, Comanche).
It seems like a lot of this debate is over definitions and how they are applied. It is muddy water in that often the same term is or has been applied, variously, to ethnicity, to political divisions, and to religions. That's the crux of the problem in trying to determine what constitutes accuracy in usage. The perception of racism, and of actual racism, is borne from that use to generalize. For example, asserting that all Muslims are terrorists because some terrorists are Muslims. It's faulty logic. |
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Racist films (2nd try)
