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Ali 
"Those aren't pillows."
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 Posted - 02/01/2007 : 06:52:53
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Israel's campaign against the Hezbollah did not endear them further to the sceptics in the East or the West, sure, but it did not turn them into complate pariahs, either. Not that it matters. I, like many of my fellow Turks, am a great supporter of Israel, and find myself emphatising, if not agreeing, with most of her military choices. We cannot judge a state that is on constant state of ready alert, surrounded by an enemy bent on its total annihilation, based on the same criteria we apply to other Western democracies.
PS. Did you know that when a suicide bomber gets killed, and goes to heaven, he is given 72 virgins? The beautiful irony is that the 72 are all male Star Trek geeks.
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ChocolateLady 
"500 Chocolate Delights"
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Posted - 02/01/2007 : 07:31:56
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I think this thread has gone totally off topic and discussions about Israel or Iraq are not appropriate here.
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Sean
"Necrosphenisciform anthropophagist."
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Posted - 02/01/2007 : 07:49:08
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Chokky, I think the original topic has been concluded, so it's open season now. 
OK, here's the way I see it. The cost to humanity of the damage done in Lebanon was significant. I forget the numbers, but a thousand or so dead civilians?, thousands more maimed?, and a few billion $ in damage. If the benefit to humanity of Israel's military action was greater than the cost, then it was the right thing to do, and I'll change my mind on it. But if it wasn't, then it wasn't the right thing to do. I'm not aware of any benefit to humanity. Hizbollah is still there, or more to the point, Iran is still there. (I think I'd better mention that obviously Iran/Hizbollah's 'military' action against Israel has no benefit whatsoever that I'm aware of: it's evil.)
Yeah, I don't want to rant on about this much longer either. Every time the topic of the Middle East comes up it makes me wanna rip my remaining hair out, and the phrase "basket case" keeps popping into my head.  |
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Sal[Au]pian
"Four ever European"
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Posted - 02/01/2007 : 09:17:15
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quote:
Originally posted by GHcool
The Jewish population of New York City and Los Angeles is more than double the Jewish population in the West Bank and Gaza. Does this mean NYC and LA could be referenced in reviews about Jews?
As I've already said, it's about whether there are whole towns that are Jewish. It's not about numbers of people.
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Also, you might want to do some research before challenging my claim that the occupation is presently vital to Israel's security.
I don't actually agree that it's ever O.K. to occupy other countries, but the matter at hand here was the residential occupation of the territories. This cannot be rationally claimed to be for security.
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The fact that I strongly identify with the Israelis
Um, you are completely going back on what you said before, when you attempted to counter my statement "you don't actually know what someone wholly non-Israeli would think." |
Edited by - Sal[Au]pian on 02/01/2007 09:19:21 |
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Sal[Au]pian
"Four ever European"
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Posted - 02/01/2007 : 09:33:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Downtown
I stand by Israel for the same reason the United States government does: because it is an island of civility floating upon a sea of barbarity and medievalism.
The United States government supports Israel because that is what its citizens want. That is how democratic governments function. If they didn't, they would have stopped China invading Tibet.
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anti-Semitism is without a doubt the only reason why most of the world doesn't.
Rubbish. I'm not denying that this may play a large part. However, I am confident that my objections to Israel's military behaviour are not on that basis.
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This was never more obvious than this past summer when most of the world condemned Israel for defending itself against an unprovoked attack by Hezbollah. There is no other country on Earth that would EVER be condemned for using deadly force to destroy a hostile army that is murdering its civilian populace on a daily basis.
Israel was not criticised for attacking Hezbollah - Israel was criticised for bombing thousands of Lebanese civilians who had nothing to do with it, and who could not flee the area because it was Israel's explicit policy to fire on any vehicles travelling along the only route out. |
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Ali
"Those aren't pillows."
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Posted - 02/01/2007 : 09:38:07
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If they didn't, they would have stopped China invading Tibet.
Yes, that was the sole reason. Nevermind that little political tightrope of an international frisson that was the Cold War. And if you think matters of national security are (or should ever be) directly linked to a democratic mandate, then you are terribly mistaken.
quote:
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anti-Semitism is without a doubt the only reason why most of the world doesn't.
Rubbish. I'm not denying that this may play a large part. However, I am confident that my objections to Israel's military behaviour are not on that basis.
However much it pains me to say so, I am with Salopian on this one. Anti-semitism is not only ripe in the world, but it is definitely on the rise, too. However, it cannot be considered the one and only reason why people of otherwise widely disparate political opinions have issues with Israeli foreign policy.
I don't; but then again I am pretty awesome (and pretty).
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Edited by - Ali on 02/01/2007 09:42:09 |
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Sal[Au]pian
"Four ever European"
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Posted - 02/01/2007 : 09:40:30
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quote:
Originally posted by GHcool
I'd like to make it clear that Israelis work very hard to limit the "feel" of the occupation to a minimum, while the Arab world continues to maximize that feel and that reality.
There isn't just the Israeli interpretation and the Arab interpretation. There are numerous independent bodies there (e.g. news and relief organisations) and it is their interpretation that, on balance, I trust. |
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Sal[Au]pian
"Four ever European"
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Posted - 02/01/2007 : 09:45:39
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quote:
Originally posted by GHcool
an attack from a nation is the same thing as an attack by a nation
This is just false. I know that the Lebanese government had some culpability for Hezbollah's presence, but this does not mean that it is (anywhere near) fully responsible for their actions, whereas of course it would be fully responsible for its own actions. |
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Sal[Au]pian
"Four ever European"
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Posted - 02/01/2007 : 09:49:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Downtown
International law has established that armies that use civilians as human shields are the ones responsible for civilian casualties, not the opposing army that's defending itself
I base my opinions on fundamental morality, not international law. However, I think 'human shields' is being used rather loosely here. The people were not being held hostage - it was Israeli policy that meant they could not escape. |
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Sal[Au]pian
"Four ever European"
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Posted - 02/01/2007 : 09:55:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Ali
quote:
If they didn't, they would have stopped China invading Tibet.
Yes, that was the sole reason. Nevermind that little political tightrope of an international frisson that was the Cold War. And if you think matters of national security are (or should ever be) directly linked to a democratic mandate, then you are terribly mistaken.
Yes, I was being simplistic and using an extreme example intentionally. I did not mean that governments feel obliged to do what their citizens want for its own sake. I just meant that they will do things which if omitted would cause them to lose significant numbers of votes. If the U.S. government did not back Israel, this is what would happen. |
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Sal[Au]pian
"Four ever European"
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Posted - 02/01/2007 : 10:00:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Ali
I, like many of my fellow Turks, am a great supporter of Israel, and find myself emphatising, if not agreeing, with most of her military choices.
Well, given the invasion of Cyprus, they'd be on shaky ground if not... |
Edited by - Sal[Au]pian on 02/01/2007 10:01:51 |
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Ali
"Those aren't pillows."
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Posted - 02/01/2007 : 10:06:30
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Hi Pot. Have I introduced you to Kettle? You'd like it. It's black.
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Sal[Au]pian
"Four ever European"
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Posted - 02/01/2007 : 10:10:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Ali
Hi Pot. Have I introduced you to Kettle? You'd like it. It's black.
Nope, I don't support the British invasion of any other territories. |
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ChocolateLady
"500 Chocolate Delights"
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Posted - 02/01/2007 : 10:29:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Se�n
Chokky, I think the original topic has been concluded, so it's open season now.
Yeah, I don't want to rant on about this much longer either. Every time the topic of the Middle East comes up it makes me wanna rip my remaining hair out, and the phrase "basket case" keeps popping into my head.
Seriously, I think we should stop using a thread in the "FWFR Related" forums to discuss international politics. There's a whole forum called "General" that we can use for this.
As for what did or didn't happen during the war this past summer, let me just say that I can assure you with all confidence, that none of us - myself included - know the full truth. I think that arguing points based on mis-informed media, rumour and conjecture is, if you ask me, just plain stupid.
So, can we take this to another forum now?
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Sal[Au]pian
"Four ever European"
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Posted - 02/01/2007 : 10:33:50
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quote:
Originally posted by ChocolateLady
Seriously, I think we should stop using a thread in the "FWFR Related" forums to discuss international politics. There's a whole forum called "General" that we can use for this.
Yes, if Benj moves the thread, I think that would be fair. N.B. It also started off in the wrong section, since it was about films on the site, not reviews.
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As for what did or didn't happen during the war this past summer, let me just say that I can assure you with all confidence, that none of us - myself included - know the full truth.
True again. That said, this applies to almost everything in life, but one still has to try to find the right path through it. Ignoring issues won't make them go away. |
Edited by - Sal[Au]pian on 02/01/2007 10:35:36 |
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Racist films (2nd try)
