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ChocolateLady 
"500 Chocolate Delights"
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 Posted - 02/06/2007 : 11:15:32
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Seems to me that this belongs in a thread of its own, and not in the FYC.
quote:
Originally posted by Beanmimo
quote:
Originally posted by Salopian
No, the incorrect form is very common over here too.
Isn't this the nature of language?
It IS constantly changing and today's widespread incorrect usage becomes tomorrows correct usage.
The word Silly (originally Selig) meant bookish and studious but through being asociated with weedy and scrawny people who were physically useless the meaning turned to "worthless"
It will never stop me hating the word "bling" though. Has that made it to the OE dictionary yet?
I used to frequent a newsgroup (alt.usage.english I believe) which discussed just such things. Fascinating stuff (especially for someone who writes poetry, as I do). One of the things that no one there could answer me is how the word "yahoo", coined (I'm sure) by Jonathan Swift in his book Gulliver's Travels went from meaning a person who acts in a savage manner to today's usage which is as a cheer or outburst of joy.
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Sal[Au]pian
"Four ever European"
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Posted - 02/06/2007 : 11:21:24
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| In the newer sense, I guess it's similar to hooray or yay. I don't think it's related to the Swift sense. The dictionary I've got gives "natural exclamation" as its etymology. |
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Ali 
"Those aren't pillows."
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Posted - 02/06/2007 : 12:12:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Salopian
quote:
Originally posted by Ali
Random House... accept[s] its usage.
Really?
"Considered" is the operative word there. It is considered a misspelling by linguists, etymologists and officious prigs alike, I am sure, but it is not set in stone. The thing is I don't even care about it; in fact, I actually agree with you. However, it is your tone that pisses me off.
It's about being harsh. Your tone, Salopian, is abrasive and antipathetic. In a website that is ultimately nothing but a fun pursuit, it sticks out like a sore thumb. You don't like to mince your words? That's great. But there is a line between being honest, and being mean. Look behind you. That dot you see on the horizon is it.
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Edited by - Ali on 02/06/2007 13:11:06 |
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Beanmimo 
"August review site"
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Posted - 02/06/2007 : 12:18:49
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Yahoo is still used in the savage/idiotic sense over here as in
"You stupid yahoo." with the stress on the 'ya'
The natural exclaimation for the word would seem quite logical. People say Yahoo! as a sort of primal release and Swift's Yahoos were originally primal languageless humans. |
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Sal[Au]pian
"Four ever European"
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Posted - 02/06/2007 : 12:21:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Ali
Your tone, Salopian, is abrasive and antipathetic.
Replay to yourself the introduction that you attempted to make to me the other day. |
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Sal[Au]pian
"Four ever European"
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Posted - 02/06/2007 : 12:30:25
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| I've looked back at the thread and I think the way that I brought it up was fine. It was secondary to a positive response to one of Sludge's reviews. It was with a smiley. I know that you have ranted against those in the past, but I am sure that you can understand that they are generally considered acceptable as an indicator of tone. Sure, I said "never correct", but that's just my opinion - it's not like I said it should be disallowed or it stopped me voting for the review. In contrast, I would only very rarely point out a typo, when I know that it's someone who would definitely be able to spell that word. Other people were constantly pointing out mistakes from C.L.'s dyslexia, and I would never have done that. |
Edited by - Sal[Au]pian on 02/06/2007 12:32:07 |
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ChocolateLady
"500 Chocolate Delights"
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Posted - 02/06/2007 : 13:12:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Salopian
Other people were constantly pointing out mistakes from C.L.'s dyslexia, and I would never have done that.
Oh, I don't mind that, really. It isn't my fault, and I do believe that my spelling isn't all that horrid compared to others who have no excuse. You have no idea what disasterous spelling I see on some of these review sites by people who claim to be intelligent and educated! I remember pointing out a mistake in the use of "they're" and "their" to someone who got angry with me for telling them so - and the person in question was working on their Masters in English at a University in the US!
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Ali
"Those aren't pillows."
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Posted - 02/06/2007 : 13:15:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Salopian
quote:
Originally posted by Ali
Your tone, Salopian, is abrasive and antipathetic.
Replay to yourself the introduction that you attempted to make to me the other day.
Huh?
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Whippersnapper. 
"A fourword thinking guy."
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Posted - 02/06/2007 : 13:19:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Ali
quote:
Originally posted by Salopian
quote:
Originally posted by Ali
Random House... accept[s] its usage.
Really?
"Considered" is the operative word there. It is considered a misspelling by linguistis, etymologists and officious prigs alike, I am sure, but it is not set in stone. The thing is I don't even care about it; in fact, I actually agree with you. However, it is your tone that pisses me off.
It's about being harsh. Your tone, Salopian, is abrasive ...
And if there is one thing Ali hates, it's abrasiveness? 
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Ali
"Those aren't pillows."
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Posted - 02/06/2007 : 13:28:21
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Too true. I am a bundle of joy and happiness.
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roger_thornhill 
"'scuse me while I disappear..."
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Posted - 02/06/2007 : 15:45:58
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This whole "Till/'til" debate boils down to one over prescriptive or descriptive theories of language. To what extent should lexicographers and linguists record language as it is used, and to what extent should they intervene to place constraints on language as it is used?
I am neither a lexicographer or linguist, but I have a hard time getting my usage hackles up over "'til" since it is at worst redundant (because "Till" exists) and not contrary to sense. Unlike, say, a double negative that is intended as a negative, or a really stupid phrase like "I could care less." |
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Whippersnapper.
"A fourword thinking guy."
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Posted - 02/06/2007 : 16:24:01
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quote:
Originally posted by george_kaplan
I am neither a lexicographer or linguist...
Shouldn't that be "neither...nor"?
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roger_thornhill
"'scuse me while I disappear..."
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Posted - 02/06/2007 : 20:42:58
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Chris C
"Four words, never backwards."
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Posted - 02/06/2007 : 23:14:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Beanmimo
Yahoo is still used in the savage/idiotic sense over here as in
"You stupid yahoo." with the stress on the 'ya'
The natural exclaimation for the word would seem quite logical. People say Yahoo! as a sort of primal release and Swift's Yahoos were originally primal languageless humans.
Origin of Yahoo may be found here. |
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Sean
"Necrosphenisciform anthropophagist."
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Posted - 02/06/2007 : 23:40:28
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Abrasive?!? You guys aren't fit to lick the sweat off a cow's balls!
Well at least nobody's being condescending. Oh, wait... |
Edited by - Sean on 02/06/2007 23:46:13 |
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Shiv 
"What a Wonderful World"
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Posted - 02/12/2007 : 09:56:08
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The English language is very complicated to pin down when you want to explore etymology.
It is almost like a creole language. The English originating in Britain was influenced by Anglo-Saxon, Latin, French (when the French families were on the throne) and as the world got more complicated and the language was spread with the colonisers, by multiple languages. The Englishes of America and Australia are different again, and the Englishes of the Asian and African countries even more varied. These Englishes were also influenced by the aboriginal languages in those countries, as well as immigrant languages or the languages of colonisers. Some of the American English dialects have remanants of Middle English in their usage - forms which have long since disappeared from the British English dialects from which the originated.
When you look at the etymology of words you can be looking to all sorts of sources. Knight (originally pronounced /knikt/) and night (originally pronounced /nikt/) were pronounced differently after the influence of French. The American English spelling of nite is the most phonemically appropriate way of spelling the word, but language 'purists' (or snobs if you want) will berate the American spelling - despite the fact it now represents the way people say the word. If you are a primary school teacher explaining why 'night' rhymes with 'kite' is hard, because you are supposedly teaching kids a patterned language, but night can only be explained as a historical relic. Kids have to learn that word and all the others that look like it (fight, might, right etc) as an irregular patterned set, whereas they can surmise kite, bite, mite, from the way they are taught literacy phonemically.
As for until, til, till. The ll on the end of the word is a natural consequence of people wanting to pattern like bill, sill, pill, kill and so on. There is no phonological reason for the ll. As is explained in one of the website links, partially, 'til' is from the Norse. The redundant prefix un- was a consequence of other language influences on the English language.
And just to add one of my pet hates, the phallacy of the 'split infinitive'. This came from Latin purists centuries ago who stated that because Latin didn't split the infinitive, then English shouldn't. However, it is not often pointed out that the Latin infinitives are not separate lexemes eg 'amare' = to love.
As for spelling - it is an unnatural beast and I am not always the best speller, especially since I am a very fast typer and don't always go back and pick up the phoemically natural errors.
A lot of English spelling has to be learned, rather than being intuitive. I got picked up on another fourum for spelling authoritative as authoratitive. This is because that's how I say it. The irony is that it was on a thread discussing Anna Nicole Smith's demise. So I don't think anyone should be made to feel bad about spelling, particularly if it is obviously due to the way the word is said.
Now, I'll just thrown in a few smilies to indicate the tone of this email
Nerdy 
Boring 
Self-satisfied  (I think this is mean to indicate approval, but dontcha reckon the critter looks a little smug?)
With the best of intentions  |
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The Nature of Language
