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Montgomery 
"F**k!"
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 Posted - 07/05/2007 : 16:45:22
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http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19588942/
Sad that he actually has to say it. That we live in a country, now, where this sort of thing happens.
Also, that more Americans are not outraged with this particular Bush action.
EM :) |
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turrell 
"Ohhhh Ohhhh Ohhhh Ohhhh "
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Posted - 07/05/2007 : 19:25:15
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I like Keith Olbermann, but the Pardon is abused by all presidents - in fact Clinton pardoned the following: Dan Rostenkowski (Dem Congressman), Susan MacDougal (who basically would not testify in Clinton's case), Roger Clinton (his brother on drug charges), Carlos A. Vignali served just 6 of 15 years on cocain traffickibg charge (sentence commuted after his father made several high-profile Democratic donations). He also pardoned Mark Rich, who fled the U.S due to tax evasion and dealings with Iran during the Iranian hostage crisis and ex-wife was a big contributor to the Clinton Presidential library.
President HW Bush pardoned 6 people affiliated with Iran Contra.
Before him Reagan pardoned George Steinbrenner (yes the Yankees owner) on campaign finance charges in the 1972 Nixon campaign.
Jimmy Carter pardoned Oscar Collazo. Collazo attempted to assassinate former President Harry Truman. He also pardoned all Viet Nam draft dodgers (I didn't like that war either but my dad went to fight it and there you are).
Ford basically lost his election for pardoning Nixon.
Pardons and commutations are very contoversial if Olbermann suggestes we should change the constitution to uphold all jury trials, so be it, but surely calling for the President to resign seems a little extreme no matter how bad a job the guy is doing. |
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Montgomery
"F**k!"
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Posted - 07/05/2007 : 22:02:04
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One, pardons by presidents usually happen right before they leave office, in order to avoid repercussions.
This happened now. And it's not truly a pardon, although some say he will do that right before he leaves office.
There is always talk and backlash when presidents make their "pardons." Olbermann is right to say what he thinks. Someone has to.
This commuting of the sentence is particularly heinous, because it protects someone who is protecting someone else very close to the president(namely the VP and/or Rove). It is very messy to say you want to find the person responsible for the leak and then stand in the way of justice when it tries to do just that.
Word is, they didn't want Scooter to be doing his time and decide that he didn't really feel he should be the fall guy for this and decide to talk, so Bush (and his administration) decided to spring him, to avoid anyone getting to the real truth of the matter.
It's all very sleazy. But, hey, nothing new with this president and his cronies.
YUCK! (Skin crawl sensation here.)
EM :)
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Sean
"Necrosphenisciform anthropophagist."
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Posted - 07/06/2007 : 01:35:09
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quote:
Originally posted by turrell
Jimmy Carter....pardoned all Viet Nam draft dodgers (I didn't like that war either but my dad went to fight it and there you are).
That's hardly an abuse of power. Refusing to go and kill people on the other side of the world is hardly a 'crime' deserving a lifetime of punishment. Should someone be punished for life for taking a moral stand against a thoroughly immoral war? People do their time in prison for murder or rape and are released, then the punishment ends. Lifelong punishment for refusing to kill someone is wrong whatever way you look at it. Carter did the only morally correct thing IMO.
Actually I grew up in a house in NZ (my parents still live there) built by an American draft dodger. He went back to the US in 1978 upon Carter's amnesty along with his stepdaughter now known as Courtney Love. Perhaps that's why you won't forgive Carter, she'd still be in NZ without the amnesty.   |
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ChocolateLady
"500 Chocolate Delights"
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Posted - 07/06/2007 : 05:52:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Montgomery
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19588942/
Sad that he actually has to say it. That we live in a country, now, where this sort of thing happens.
Also, that more Americans are not outraged with this particular Bush action.
EM :)
With all due respect, I disagree. Bush and Cheney should be impeached, and thrown into jail!
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Montgomery
"F**k!"
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Posted - 07/06/2007 : 15:19:13
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quote:
Originally posted by ChocolateLady
quote:
Originally posted by Montgomery
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19588942/
Sad that he actually has to say it. That we live in a country, now, where this sort of thing happens.
Also, that more Americans are not outraged with this particular Bush action.
EM :)
With all due respect, I disagree. Bush and Cheney should be impeached, and thrown into jail!
I completely agree. I am so sad to see the state our country has gotten to, where the sort of abuses of power that have gone on with the president and this administration are either ignored or covered by a precious few (Olbermann, Maher, Stewart, etc.). Where is the outrage? What are Americans doing? He is killing our sons and daughters (and some older servicemen and women, too, since he keeps calling people back up to serve) in a war we had no business beginning. And we were the ones to BEGIN it, against the advice of most of the rest of the world. His whole administration is just a bunch of unqualified cronies, there for the easy cash and power with no care for the country they supposedly are in office to serve.
He has trampled our rights in the name of fighting terrorism. You can't honestly fight terrorism. That will always exist. That's like saying you're going to rid the world of serial killers. You can't. You can get some. But, you will never get them all, because new serial killers and terrorists are born all the time.
And yet, no outcry of impeachment. No outcry for any answers whatsoever. He gets a free pass to do whatever he wants. He might as well pull down his pants and take a piss on the Constitution and our flag and whatever else he can hit. No one will blame him for it or hold him or his people accountable. And if they do, hey, Bush will commute the sentence!
EM :) |
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turrell
"Ohhhh Ohhhh Ohhhh Ohhhh "
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Posted - 07/06/2007 : 15:31:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Se�n
Actually I grew up in a house in NZ (my parents still live there) built by an American draft dodger. He went back to the US in 1978 upon Carter's amnesty along with his stepdaughter now known as Courtney Love. Perhaps that's why you won't forgive Carter, she'd still be in NZ without the amnesty.
I am not saying that any of these actions are an abuse of power but that they are all very controversial - and thus to make an argument that one president should be impeached or forced to resign when all of his predecessors made equally controversial pardons/commutations is not a fair position. For everyone who is in favor of pardoning draft dodgers there is someone against it and believe it or not there is large scale support for pardoning Scooter Libby among the right wing (which believe me I don't consider myself).
As for Courtney Love - she is a disaster, no dount, but I really dug a lot of Hole songs, so I can't say it was all bad. |
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Montgomery
"F**k!"
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Posted - 07/06/2007 : 15:58:43
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quote:
Originally posted by turrell
quote:
Originally posted by Se�n
Actually I grew up in a house in NZ (my parents still live there) built by an American draft dodger. He went back to the US in 1978 upon Carter's amnesty along with his stepdaughter now known as Courtney Love. Perhaps that's why you won't forgive Carter, she'd still be in NZ without the amnesty.
I am not saying that any of these actions are an abuse of power but that they are all very controversial - and thus to make an argument that one president should be impeached or forced to resign when all of his predecessors made equally controversial pardons/commutations is not a fair position. For everyone who is in favor of pardoning draft dodgers there is someone against it and believe it or not there is large scale support for pardoning Scooter Libby among the right wing (which believe me I don't consider myself).
As for Courtney Love - she is a disaster, no dount, but I really dug a lot of Hole songs, so I can't say it was all bad.
If you don't see the difference between this particular intervention from the president and others, I don't know what to say to make you understand how this is just wrong, because it is stepping in to help someone who covered for him or someone in his administration in the very serious offense of outing one of our own C.I.A. operatives. It's slimly, disgusting, political stuff and, not to mention, illegal, what "someone" did in his administration. Scooter knows the truth and won't tell it, so he was sentenced to obstruction of justice (I think that was the actual crime. Not completely sure.). And then Bush over-ruled our courts (in a sense) and said he didn't have to serve time. That is very wrong! Impeachable. In fact, if you saw the Olbermann piece, he is drawing a parallel to when Nixon stepped in and removed the prosecutor on a case that involved him. Nixon resigned. Bush should too! Nixon saw the end coming. Bush, unfortunately, is not being called on this. Wake up, America!
The president should not (and should be not able to)use his power in cases that involve dirty dealings with his own administration (and himself).
Besides, I don't buy your argument This and this has happened in the past with these other presidents, so we shouldn't ever question a president for doing something that seems similar. One, we learn from mistakes. Just because someone got away with something in the past is not the proper argument for continuing to let others do the same in the future. And, two, nothing is exactly the same. You bring up Jimmy Carter pardoning Viet Nam draft dodgers. Please! That is in no way the same. He was doing something for citizens of his country who disagreed with the policies of the time. President Bush was just trying to save his VP and his trusted advisor, Rove's asses.
There's a difference.
And, again, I say it is a disgusting abuse of power.
EM :)
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Whippersnapper. 
"A fourword thinking guy."
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Posted - 07/06/2007 : 16:29:59
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EM,
I think you're being sooo unfair to George W over this commutation!
Don't you realise that Dick Cheney told him to do it, so what choice did he have?
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turrell
"Ohhhh Ohhhh Ohhhh Ohhhh "
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Posted - 07/06/2007 : 19:07:53
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Bill Clinton was being investigated for a wide range of infractions with regards to Whitewater real estate investments, Susan MacDougal was called to offer testimony against the president - she refused to testify - jailed on obstruction of justice charges and was pardoned - sounds very much the same thing you are alleging which is the commutation / pardoning is a favgor in return for keeping quiet.
I don't like Bush - I didn't vote for him. I wish he wasn't our president and I wish we never went to war in Iraq - positions I have held since before we went to Iraq (unlike the majority of Americans who have flopped on the subject). However, I don't believe that Bush has done anything that warrants impeachment or resignation. With the unpopular war and rage over his supposed robbery of the the 2000 election, he still beat John Kerry in 2004 - so we are stuck with him until 2009 or until he gets convicted of a real criminal offense not merely horrible judgement. |
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Stalean
"Back...OMG"
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Posted - 07/06/2007 : 19:18:35
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| You're welcome to come over to this thread to give your opinions. |
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Montgomery
"F**k!"
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Posted - 07/06/2007 : 19:33:24
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quote:
Originally posted by turrell
Bill Clinton was being investigated for a wide range of infractions with regards to Whitewater real estate investments, Susan MacDougal was called to offer testimony against the president - she refused to testify - jailed on obstruction of justice charges and was pardoned - sounds very much the same thing you are alleging which is the commutation / pardoning is a favgor in return for keeping quiet.
I don't like Bush - I didn't vote for him. I wish he wasn't our president and I wish we never went to war in Iraq - positions I have held since before we went to Iraq (unlike the majority of Americans who have flopped on the subject). However, I don't believe that Bush has done anything that warrants impeachment or resignation. With the unpopular war and rage over his supposed robbery of the the 2000 election, he still beat John Kerry in 2004 - so we are stuck with him until 2009 or until he gets convicted of a real criminal offense not merely horrible judgement.
I of course did NOT vote for George Bush. As, Keith Olbermann quoted, I also hoped -- that he would still be a good president, because like it or not, now he is our president. I hoped that.
I have been sorely disappointed at every turn with this president and his administration.
At first, I thought Bush just had bad judgement. I gave him a pass on things, because he didn't seem particularly bright. But now I feel he completely misundertands the role of a president. He is power hungry. He cares not about our country. He cares only for his friends, which he puts into lofty positions way beyond their qualifications in order to pay them back for whatever they have done for him or his family in the past. They screw up (as they are bound to do, because of inexperience, or just greed) and he covers for them. He stands behind them, even when it is obvious that they should be replaced. And when he finally does replace someone, he replaces that person with an equally unqualified person. He should be loyal to our country first, his friends second. He is the president and that is the job he has taken on. I believe there was an oath involved as well.
He should act on behalf of our country. Has he done that, ever? He gave tax cuts to his rich friends and campaign contributors. He has started a war that has cost us countless resources, not to mention the loss of young lives. Over 3,000 soldiers have died. Just think of the misery of all the families involved. And for what? They want the oil. They are waiting for Iraq to approve the selling of the oil to our American companies, so that a few people will profit greatly. And talk about profits -- Halliburton has had a no-bid free ride on the gravy train since this war began. Halliburton, which used to employ Cheney and probably still does pay him some kind of dividends (or maybe they're storing it all up to pay to him once he leaves office in 2008). I can go on.
You bring me Whitewater, which was never proven and certainly wasn't something that affected the whole country as many of Bush's misdeeds have done. What's next, you'll bring up Clinton's affair? That fiasco was a complete witchhunt by the GOP. I care not that he screwed around. I am not his wife. And that was a giant waste of the country's time and money to embarrass our standing president.
I wish that Clinton had had the sense to tell them when they asked if he had an affair that it was none of their business and left it at that. But he was stupid and tried to weasle around it, and then they got really bloodthirsty and went after him for the lie.
I bring you Bush's record from the day he stole the 2000 election. I cannot think of one thing he has done that I am proud of. Honestly!!!
I cannot wait for the nightmare of his presidency to be over. Let's just hope our country and its standing in the world will not be so ruined by then that we won't be able to recover.
It reminds me of his father, who chose Dan Quayle as his Vice President, a man who came off as a total idiot anytime he opened his mouth. And this is the man he put a heartbeat away from the presidency. To me that showed just how little Bush Sr. cared about our country, because he did not care if we would be left with a nitwit as president should he die in office. The son is like the father.
By the way, until recently, his father was on the board at Carlyle (sp) Group, which has also profited greatly from the Iraq war.
That war is a big money maker for few and widow and orphan maker for many. Makes me very, very sad.
EM :)
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randall 
"I like to watch."
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Posted - 07/06/2007 : 19:48:24
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The most interesting thing to a dispassionate observer should be that the Libby affair proves that there actually is a vast right-wing conspiracy.
Consider:
The same mouth-breathers who howled for Clinton's impeachment for the selfsame infraction [perjury] are now saying, "Let my Scooter go." They screamed as one.
An almost identical trial and conviction ended with a stiff jail term. Same exemplary government service bullshit. But, sadly, this guy wasn't a Bush buddy.
Bush is supposed to be tough on crime. Tough sentencing. Only extra-posse sentencing, it turns out.
He vowed to "take care of" anybody at the ranch who busted the law. [Hey: he actually did "take care of" Scooter!]
He didn't pardon. He commuted. Thought we were too stupid [and may be right] to see he could do it by degrees. (1) Zap the jail term. NOW. (2) Hit on daddy's rich friends to pay the fine. (3) Pardon the community service, and the whole fucking crime, just before he finally ducks out of office, letting the Scoot get his law degree back. Clinton has nothing on this bozo.
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Montgomery
"F**k!"
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Posted - 07/06/2007 : 20:09:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Randall
The most interesting thing to a dispassionate observer should be that the Libby affair proves that there actually is a vast right-wing conspiracy.
Consider:
The same mouth-breathers who howled for Clinton's impeachment for the selfsame infraction [perjury] are now saying, "Let my Scooter go." They screamed as one.
An almost identical trial and conviction ended with a stiff jail term. Same exemplary government service bullshit. But, sadly, this guy wasn't a Bush buddy.
Bush is supposed to be tough on crime. Tough sentencing. Only extra-posse sentencing, it turns out.
He vowed to "take care of" anybody at the ranch who busted the law. [Hey: he actually did "take care of" Scooter!]
He didn't pardon. He commuted. Thought we were too stupid [and may be right] to see he could do it by degrees. (1) Zap the jail term. NOW. (2) Hit on daddy's rich friends to pay the fine. (3) Pardon the community service, and the whole fucking crime, just before he finally ducks out of office, letting the Scoot get his law degree back. Clinton has nothing on this bozo.
Here, here.
EM :) |
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Sean
"Necrosphenisciform anthropophagist."
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Posted - 07/07/2007 : 00:19:29
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It's interesting reading this discussion as an outside observer. The Americans here generally take the position "President A is bad, President B is worse, President C wasn't so bad" etc etc.
I think the problem the USA has with presidential abuse of power is due to your presidents having far too much power. It simply isn't necessary for the head-of-state to have the power to free criminals (just because they feel like it) in order to govern effectively. New Zealand does not have an individual who has the power to pardon criminals, I don't believe most Western democracies do. The only way that can be done is by a court or an act of parliament.
Sure, the world knows that Dubya is a moron, out of his depth, and does what he's told. The world laughed at the USA at the 2000 election fiasco and couldn't believe that a handful of spoiled ballots in Florida could mean the difference between absolute power and no power when it was clear that Gore got more votes. The world also laughed at (and got thoroughly bored by) the issue the USA made of a few presidential blow jobs.
My guess is that the USA is one of the better places on the planet to live (behind NZ and Australia of course ), but the country is in serious need of constitutional electoral reform. My understanding is the electoral college was established, and the president gained his powers in the horse-and-cart days when it took a month to get a message to another part of the country, and rapid-decision-making-power seemed necessary. These days, that level of power in the hands of one individual is not only unnecessary, it's dangerous. |
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w22dheartlivie
"Kitty Lover"
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Posted - 07/07/2007 : 08:34:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Montgomery
It reminds me of his father, who chose Dan Quayle as his Vice President, a man who came off as a total idiot anytime he opened his mouth. And this is the man he put a heartbeat away from the presidency. To me that showed just how little Bush Sr. cared about our country, because he did not care if we would be left with a nitwit as president should he die in office. The son is like the father.
As a Hoosier, I would at this time like to extend sincere apologies on behalf of the state for Dan Quayle, letting Mike Tyson out of jail and for Bobby Knight.
Having said that, Bush Sr., by virtue of breeding, DID enable a nitwit to become president. I can say that I opposed his election, both in 2000 and 2004, opposed the Iraq war, and essentially, oppose everything he stands for. I couldn't care less whether Bill Clinton got a blow job in the Oval Office. More power to him, I'm guessing he hadn't seen much action in the White House. Besides, he's just one in a long line of Presidents who got a little on the side. It has nothing to do with the ability to lead a country. I also agree with Olbermann when he says that Bush took what was a great grass roots support from the entire country post-9/11 and subverted into something that is akin to Godzilla, stomping across our country. I am so very tired of having my patriotism questioned because I don't support the war or support the president. I still support my country.
As for Presidential pardons, some of them seem very necessary to me, done with the intention of healing the country and putting things behind us. The pardon of Nixon and the pardon of draft dodgers both seem to me to be acts that let us move on. There have been Presidential pardons since George Washington, who pardoned participants in the Whiskey Rebellions, Andrew Johnson pardoned Confederates (well, some of them) as well as Samuel "Your name is" Mudd, Nixon pardoned Jimmy Hoffa (who then had the audacity to disappear), and Jimmy Carter also commuted Patty Hearst's sentence which Clinton completed by pardoning her altogether. As I said, some were done in the interest of the country, others not so much. However, I do think the system needs some tweaking. A sitting President should not have the power to pardon and commute family, friends and cronies. Wait and see, when Bush leaves, he'll pardon Jenna for her DUI.
All I know is that prior to 2000, I could afford to heat my house, put gasoline in my car (which I no longer have), and light my house with something besides candles. I will be so glad when this administration ends. |
Edited by - w22dheartlivie on 07/07/2007 08:44:03 |
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I love Keith Olbermann
