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BiggerBoat 
"Pass me the harpoon"
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 Posted - 01/20/2009 : 12:25:57
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This is a big day, but like Baffy I�m not holding my breath. For all his talk of change he needs to back it up � not with just a few token tweaks, but with wide-ranging fundamental changes that go against American policy for the last 100 years.
The world is a mess. It is dying and yet we consume more every day. We ignore the fact that resources are running out but complain when the price of filling up our cars increases. Pollution is getting worse and the chemicals in the air getting more deadly.
There are wars and injustices happening all over the world but when intervention doesn�t tally with �American interests� (not that I believe Britain is innocent in this � your interests are our interests ), you turn a blind eye.
Foreign disputes are fuelled by arms sold by us for huge amounts of money . Our media outlets, the number of which are shrinking every year, destroying balanced reporting, then tell us which side we should be on by feeding us propaganda that is spoon fed to them by government agencies. The prophet understood.
And the worst of it is that we, the populace, of these first world �free� countries are fat, depressed, spiritually devoid leeches who suckle on this corrupt system. Should our energy, food and water resources disappear tomorrow we wouldn�t have a clue how to survive on this world that had nurtured us mammals for millions of years. How did we forget so much in the pursuit of so little?
Obama talks of change. Well, the world is listening big guy, and if you don�t get it right, it could mean the end of all of us.
At least George has gone though.
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Sal[Au]pian 
"Four ever European"
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Posted - 01/20/2009 : 12:38:53
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One of the things I don't know Obama's position on (partly because it doesn't really have any international implications) is healthcare, but I've wondered all along whether -- especially with Clinton in place -- he's going to do anything about it. If he brought in what its opponents quaintly like to call 'socialised' medicine (though they don't feel the need to refer to 'socialised' education!), then he would have done a great deal domestically even if he did nothing else.
I'd also like to think that he couldn't be less environmentally friendly than George Bush. While no country is doing enough in that regard, it wouldn't do any harm for the United States government to be somewhat closer to all the other developed nations's positions, partly because there's no hope of reigning China in otherwise (not that there is much even so). |
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BiggerBoat
"Pass me the harpoon"
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Posted - 01/20/2009 : 12:59:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Salopian
It's amazing that anyone can choose to believe in a Christian God (or most other gods) and think that He supports any war. It goes against the whole point.
Christian have been warlike since Constantine the Great. Many Christian intellectuals believe that he forever changed the face of the faith, which is hardly surprising - the Romans killed Jesus, why shouldn't they be the ones to infect the faith he began?
The Roman Catholic Church undertook the Spanish Inquistion (the largest ethnic cleansing in history) and also persecuted the 'heretics' including the Cathars (those who believed in the Gnostic, or spiritual, side of Christianity) in an attempt to homognise the Christian religion. As far as I'm concerned any kind of link to the teachings of Jesus by modern Christian churches has been long forgotten. It's all lip service.
Say what you want about Judaism and Islam, but at least they wrote down the word of God directly and have copied it faithfully ever since. Christianity has just absorbed all the 'pagan' religions of the world and rebranded it to fit what the church considers our needs to be. Check out the story of Horus, the Sun God for starters.
Besides, Bush was no Christian. How many born again Christians do you know that never go to church? All too convenient for me. It was Karl Rove's master plan of securing the votes of the people (of the only nation in the world where religous conversion is on the increase*) and making that fundamental taboo of mixing church and state.
* citation needed (I did read that somewhere)
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Sal[Au]pian
"Four ever European"
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Posted - 01/20/2009 : 13:12:15
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quote:
Originally posted by BiggerBoat
Say what you want about Judaism and Islam, but at least they wrote down the word of God directly and have copied it faithfully ever since.
Well, they didn't really, since God is just pretend.  But yes, they do more generally seem to follow the texts more literally (at least in Islam -- I'm not so sure with Judaism). However, as with Christian fundamentalists who do the same, people keen on doing such things also tend to be keen on sticking to the translations they find convenient. I don't need convincing that many terrible things have been done in the name of Christianity, but I also don't think it's fair to say that there aren't large numbers of its followers who stick to the spirit of the New Testament; they're just (therefore) not the kind of people who get into power. But I don't want to get into saying which religion is more sensible than another, since I find them all ridiculous and it is almost as ridiculous to say that two things are both false but one is better than the other (a simplification, I know). |
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BiggerBoat
"Pass me the harpoon"
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Posted - 01/20/2009 : 13:49:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Salopian
quote:
Originally posted by BiggerBoat
Say what you want about Judaism and Islam, but at least they wrote down the word of God directly and have copied it faithfully ever since.
Well, they didn't really, since God is just pretend.
Yeah, I meant to put word of God in inverted commas...
quote:
Originally posted by Salopian
...but I also don't think it's fair to say that there aren't large numbers of its followers who stick to the spirit of the New Testament; they're just (therefore) not the kind of people who get into power.
Well exactly - giving away everything you own hadly tallies with running for Prez does it?
quote:
Originally posted by Salopian
But I don't want to get into saying which religion is more sensible than another...
Ahem, Buddhism.
quote:
Originally posted by Salopian
...since I find them all ridiculous and it is almost as ridiculous to say that two things are both false but one is better than the other (a simplification, I know).
Yes, I think the lack of coherence in any of the major religions makes them difficult to accept. That said, I do believe that having sprituality in your life does improve it (ask anyone who does yoga). I also believe that a lot of religions have the same basic message but the whole adherance to ritual and dogma makes (many of) them unpalatable.
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Wheelz 
"FWFR%u2019ing like it%u2019s 1999"
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Posted - 01/20/2009 : 14:09:17
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There are some people in this country who truly and firmly believe that at noon today, everything that is wrong with America will suddenly be right. That is, of course, ridiculous.
But as cynical as I tend to be, even I find myself giving in somewhat to the excitement of this day. There is real history happening here, and it's exhilarating.
It's true that the President only has so much power, and no administration can accomplish everything it sets out to do. And don't be fooled, Obama is not some aw-shucks-gee-whiz Jimmy Stewart type. He's a politician who knows how to play the game. But, (as CL touched upon regarding JFK), the tone a President sets for the public cannot be underestimated. If Obama can fix health care, end the recession, and bring peace to the middle east, great, but don't hold your breath.
However, if he can manage to influence the citizens of his nation to rise to greater heights as individuals, to believe they can achieve more than they thought possible during these past 8 years of slumber, then his administration will be a success. Some may argue that by that measure, before he has even taken the oath, his administration is already a success.
As Baffy pointed out, real change won't come from the government. But today I have hope (yep, I'm using that word, "hope"; deal with it) that the change we desperately need may eventually be coming, not from the top down but from the bottom up, from all the people who've been inspired by the rise of Barack Obama.
...and, he sure as hell can't do as badly as the last guy. |
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Sal[Au]pian
"Four ever European"
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Posted - 01/20/2009 : 14:35:14
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quote:
Originally posted by BiggerBoat
quote:
Originally posted by Salopian
But I don't want to get into saying which religion is more sensible than another..
Ahem, Buddhism.
Yeah, Buddhism is what I always have in mind when I think this point in fact. By that I mean that it is more appealing than the other religions (in its moral tenets, lack of God, lack of Hell and gradualness) but... I still don't have any reason to believe it*. So if I find Buddhism* totally untrue and Christianity* totally untrue I have to be careful not to slip into thinking that the latter is more untrue than the former.
*In all of these cases, what I mean is how the religion sets up the universe. Many aspects of the morality encoded within each are still right, but I consider those aspects to be encoded there because they are right rather than the religion having initiated them. |
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MguyXXVI
"X marks the spot"
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Posted - 01/20/2009 : 16:13:27
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quote:
I come to bury Caesar ...
Beebs, I could not disagree with you more on your assessment of Mr. Obama�s wherewithal and the temperament for change. No: America will not become a socialist state. In that sense, you can be assured that �nothing radical will change� (which I understand to be �nothing will change radically,� because the instance of the more �radical� influences of the Bush administration and the Republican party will most certainly change).
Where did you hear that Mr. Obama reneged on closing Guantanamo? If your understanding was that he promised to close the camp on January 21, 2009, that understanding would have been inaccurate. Like any responsible, wise and contemplative person, Mr. Obama has chosen not to rush headlong into a showy spectacle for the sheer sake of appeasing some sector of world opinion. Isn�t the inverse, knee-jerk type of response just the sort of thought process that got us all involved in the Iraq debacle? And you are somehow made worse by the continued incarceration of at least some certifiable terrorists while the new administration carefully considers its best options in what way? Mr. Obama opts to be thoughtful and careful, and you write him off as a liar?
I take extreme exception with everyone in Western nations who act as if the global financial crisis and the rise in global terrorism is somehow the sole fault of America. When I review the record, I see a number of countries involved, not the least of which was the U.K. And while we are on that subject, I disdain the self-righteous claim of others that they could somehow see that �we� were making mistakes (via Bush) and ... and ... and what? Tried to stop us? Tony Blair marched lockstep with George Bush! You (the collective �you,� not just the singular you, my dear, as you know I love you) were no more effective in making your own governmental representatives take heed, so don�t fucking lecture me about how fucked the world is for America�s sake. That's bullshit.
Global greed is the culprit. Global greed.
On a more particular note, let us indeed not forget, dear Beebs, that Mr. Obama is a lawyer: a person with specific and rigorous training in the law. To the public psyche, being a lawyer is like being a cop: everybody hates them until trouble starts and you need them. If being a lawyer were a pedestrian thing, then every pedestrian would be a lawyer. Being a lawyer is a unique thing: legal training is a mentally expansive process that aims to hone critical and analytical thinking; being a good lawyer, trained by some of the best legal minds in the world, therefore, is an extremely unique thing. Bill Clinton was a lawyer. George Bush has an MBA � he�s not a lawyer. Do you see the difference already?
Mr. Obama�s political rhetoric is figurative and allusive � by design and necessity: the average person has neither the training nor the patience to listen to the detailed facts, figures, analyses, theories and strategies that go into designing national policy. It�s available to read, in thick and largely boring tomes published yearly by the Government Printing Office, but most people won�t read it. Jimmy Carter tried to translate that information into a public diatribe, and that help cost him � and us � his presidency. So I don�t begrudge Mr. Obama some rhetoric. Hell: don�t you enjoy the fine rhetoric in any of Shakespeare�s histories? There�s nothing wrong in encouraging people and building their faith.
You do us an extreme disservice to declare Mr. Obama as more of the same. You should hold your opinion in reserve until you have sufficient evidence with which to tender a well-reasoned and substantiated opinion. Otherwise, it�s just hating. And players pimp haters everyday. 
Oh, and livie, my sweet, one executed by hanging is �hanged�: to say they were �hung� means they had big d!�ks. 
By the way, this is not a peronal attack on Baftababe. She is an accomplished, hard-working, fun-loving and creative person whom I respect and admire dearly. I just have diffence of opinion and I'm voicing it. I do not mean that to reflect on anything other than the different opinion. |
Edited by - MguyXXVI on 01/20/2009 18:34:25 |
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MisterBadIdea 
"PLZ GET MILK, KTHXBYE"
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Posted - 01/20/2009 : 17:05:04
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I certainly have seen no evidence that the man who, within minutes of me typing this, will be president has reneged on his promise to close Gitmo. All the most recent news coverage I've looked at says he may announce its closing as early as Wednesday.
My friends have all been joking that come noon today, everything that's been wrong will be made right. That won't happen. But we have a president now who at the very least is willing to think hard about issues and find the right people to do the right job. God bless. |
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Sal[Au]pian
"Four ever European"
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Posted - 01/20/2009 : 17:08:49
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| Fucking hell, I hope that garbled oath isn't portentous! |
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Sal[Au]pian
"Four ever European"
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Posted - 01/20/2009 : 17:11:03
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| The Lord of the Dance number was also rather bizarre (and, frankly, I think everything involved should be totally secular). Onwards and upwards... |
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MguyXXVI
"X marks the spot"
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Posted - 01/20/2009 : 18:43:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Salopian
Fucking hell, I hope that garbled oath isn't portentous!
That was fear (Justice Roberts) in the face of destiny (President Obama). For the record: it was Roberts who screwed up the oath, changing the position of the adverb "faithfully" and inventing the phrase "President to the United States" instead of using the traditional "President of the United States." President Obama initially launched into the traditional oath. But upon recognizing the Justice's gaffe, the President graciously opted not to correct Justice Roberts and, instead, allowed the Justice to phrase the oath as he would, with the President repeating the oath as administered.
Yes, it is portentous: of humility and grace. |
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BaftaBaby 
"Always entranced by cinema."
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Posted - 01/20/2009 : 20:12:42
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quote:
Originally posted by MguyX
quote:
I come to bury Caesar ...
Beebs, I could not disagree with you more on your assessment of Mr. Obama�s wherewithal and the temperament for change. No: America will not become a socialist state.
I never said it would. I don't subscribe to any rigid economic tenets. I think we're clever enough as a species to investigate less harmful ways of living together than the ones that are currently ruining the planet and degrading people. I just want us to start asking the fucking questions!
I merely pointed out that there is now a golden opportunity to do just that. I can't believe I'm the only person in the world who isn't so happy to see human sacrifice across the world in terms of jobs, houses, savings, pensions, whatever - in order to prop up what sure looks to be a dying system.
quote:
In that sense, you can be assured that �nothing radical will change� (which I understand to be �nothing will change radically,� because the instance of the more �radical� influences of the Bush administration and the Republican party will most certainly change).
Yeah, sorry - my typing got ahead of my grammar 
quote:
Where did you hear that Mr. Obama reneged on closing Guantanamo? If your understanding was that he promised to close the camp on January 21, 2009, that understanding would have been inaccurate.
This was headline news here. It was then widely reported some days later that he stepped back from pinpointing a date after he'd had a White House briefing with Shrub and military peeps. Some news analysts even suggested he'd been given "sensitive" information that made him change his plans. And some other analysts suggested that might mean keeping the camp open for many months, even years. These reports came hot on the heels of news that Bush's requests for US allies to accept the prisoners had all been denied.
quote:
Like any responsible, wise and contemplative person, Mr. Obama has chosen not to rush headlong into a showy spectacle for the sheer sake of appeasing some sector of world opinion. Isn�t the inverse, knee-jerk type of response just the sort of thought process that got us all involved in the Iraq debacle? And you are somehow made worse by the continued incarceration of at least some certifiable terrorists while the new administration carefully considers its best options in what way? Mr. Obama opts to be thoughtful and careful, and you write him off as a liar?
Whoa there! I never said he was a liar. I was trying to back up my conviction that the rhetoric of politicians, especially in an era of global communications, is not to be taken at face value. The very language is only so emotionally effective because it's phrased in generalities. There have already been - purely because of public pressure - at least several proven cases mistaken identity and false arrest of Gitmo inmates. Haven't you noticed how much misinformation about incarceration, treatment, conditions is later shown to have been used to justify the unjustifiable? But my real point wasn't about the camp or about how one deals with terrorists. It was about public expectations raised by speeches crafted to engender unity and emotions.
Hell, I've just been watching the inauguration and - yes, of course, tears were pouring down my face. But even as I was moved by the memories of marching for civil rights back in the early 1960s, of volunteering for the NAACP, of endless discussions with friends black and white reacting to George Wallace and Rosa Parks and Malcolm X -- even as I was moved by remembering all that, I was listening for some substance. In fact, at some moments, when he paused I mentally filled in the word I thought would come next. It did. So, yeah, I love good speeches - hell I'm an actress. And, while Obama was speaking I thought Oh, yes, after 8 years of that slug, America has itself a leader again.
quote:
You do us an extreme disservice to declare Mr. Obama as more of the same. You should hold your opinion in reserve until you have sufficient evidence with which to tender a well-reasoned and substantiated opinion. Otherwise, it�s just hating. And players pimp haters everyday.
I don't have enough time just now to counter your points about the financial crisis. I agree it's global, but so much more complex than that. I do NOT hate Obama. I think he's the best thing to happen to American politics for DECADES. My caveats are not about him. They're about the way that politicians are forced to act. They're about the way that so many people read in what they want to hear. They're about the weakness of a system that seems only to be able to function on a bedrock of deception. And I ain't gonna apologize for pointing that out.
quote:
By the way, this is not a peronal attack on Baftababe. She is an accomplished, hard-working, fun-loving and creative person whom I respect and admire dearly. I just have diffence of opinion and I'm voicing it. I do not mean that to reflect on anything other than the different opinion.
I knew that! 
Ditto!
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MguyXXVI
"X marks the spot"
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Posted - 01/20/2009 : 20:40:52
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quote:
Originally posted by BaftaBabe
quote:
Originally posted by MguyX
quote:
I come to bury Caesar ...
Beebs, I could not disagree with you more on your assessment of Mr. Obama�s wherewithal and the temperament for change. No: America will not become a socialist state.
I never said it would. I don't subscribe to any rigid economic tenets. I think we're clever enough as a species to investigate less harmful ways of living together than the ones that are currently ruining the planet and degrading people. I just want us to start asking the fucking questions!
I merely pointed out that there is now a golden opportunity to do just that. I can't believe I'm the only person in the world who isn't so happy to see human sacrifice across the world in terms of jobs, houses, savings, pensions, whatever - in order to prop up what sure looks to be a dying system.
quote:
In that sense, you can be assured that �nothing radical will change� (which I understand to be �nothing will change radically,� because the instance of the more �radical� influences of the Bush administration and the Republican party will most certainly change).
Yeah, sorry - my typing got ahead of my grammar
quote:
Where did you hear that Mr. Obama reneged on closing Guantanamo? If your understanding was that he promised to close the camp on January 21, 2009, that understanding would have been inaccurate.
This was headline news here. It was then widely reported some days later that he stepped back from pinpointing a date after he'd had a White House briefing with Shrub and military peeps. Some news analysts even suggested he'd been given "sensitive" information that made him change his plans. And some other analysts suggested that might mean keeping the camp open for many months, even years. These reports came hot on the heels of news that Bush's requests for US allies to accept the prisoners had all been denied.
quote:
Like any responsible, wise and contemplative person, Mr. Obama has chosen not to rush headlong into a showy spectacle for the sheer sake of appeasing some sector of world opinion. Isn�t the inverse, knee-jerk type of response just the sort of thought process that got us all involved in the Iraq debacle? And you are somehow made worse by the continued incarceration of at least some certifiable terrorists while the new administration carefully considers its best options in what way? Mr. Obama opts to be thoughtful and careful, and you write him off as a liar?
Whoa there! I never said he was a liar. I was trying to back up my conviction that the rhetoric of politicians, especially in an era of global communications, is not to be taken at face value. The very language is only so emotionally effective because it's phrased in generalities. There have already been - purely because of public pressure - at least several proven cases mistaken identity and false arrest of Gitmo inmates. Haven't you noticed how much misinformation about incarceration, treatment, conditions is later shown to have been used to justify the unjustifiable? But my real point wasn't about the camp or about how one deals with terrorists. It was about public expectations raised by speeches crafted to engender unity and emotions.
Hell, I've just been watching the inauguration and - yes, of course, tears were pouring down my face. But even as I was moved by the memories of marching for civil rights back in the early 1960s, of volunteering for the NAACP, of endless discussions with friends black and white reacting to George Wallace and Rosa Parks and Malcolm X -- even as I was moved by remembering all that, I was listening for some substance. In fact, at some moments, when he paused I mentally filled in the word I thought would come next. It did. So, yeah, I love good speeches - hell I'm an actress. And, while Obama was speaking I thought Oh, yes, after 8 years of that slug, America has itself a leader again.
quote:
You do us an extreme disservice to declare Mr. Obama as more of the same. You should hold your opinion in reserve until you have sufficient evidence with which to tender a well-reasoned and substantiated opinion. Otherwise, it�s just hating. And players pimp haters everyday.
I don't have enough time just now to counter your points about the financial crisis. I agree it's global, but so much more complex than that. I do NOT hate Obama. I think he's the best thing to happen to American politics for DECADES. My caveats are not about him. They're about the way that politicians are forced to act. They're about the way that so many people read in what they want to hear. They're about the weakness of a system that seems only to be able to function on a bedrock of deception. And I ain't gonna apologize for pointing that out.
quote:
By the way, this is not a peronal attack on Baftababe. She is an accomplished, hard-working, fun-loving and creative person whom I respect and admire dearly. I just have diffence of opinion and I'm voicing it. I do not mean that to reflect on anything other than the different opinion.
I knew that!
Ditto!
WELL WHY DIDN'T YOU SAY SO IN THE FIRST PLACE?!?!?!?!    |
Edited by - MguyXXVI on 01/20/2009 20:48:40 |
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Sal[Au]pian
"Four ever European"
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Posted - 01/20/2009 : 20:49:07
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quote:
Originally posted by MguyX
That was fear (Justice Roberts)
Is he related to dread (Pirate Roberts)?
In all honesty, I thought they both made a meal of it, but I'll watch it back on YouTube to check. I don't know why he didn't just use one of those glass autocues (as a back-up; he'd surely learnt it). |
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RIP - The George W. Bush Era
