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duh 
"catpurrs"
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 Posted - 02/03/2009 : 15:49:57
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Nurse may be fired for offering to pray for patient.
Isn't that over-reacting just a bit?
Why should it be only the nurse who is expected to show tolerance for other beliefs? Why shouldn't the clients have the same expected of them?
On the other hand, why didn't the nurse just pray for the patient anyhow and privately, without offering it? At the very least, it would have done no harm. Did she want "credit" for doing it? I think Christ advised against public shows of piety such as those performed by the Pharisees.
If you're a Jewish or Muslim or Christian patient, and a nurse of a faith of one of the two faiths of which you are not a member offers to pray for you, why would you be offended, when all three faiths presumably have the same God?
If you're an atheist, offers of prayer should offend you least of all. Logically, why should you be offended if someone offers to invoke the blessings of their imaginary friend on your behalf? Just ask them to put in a good word with Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny while they're at it. ;)
I think sometimes a few people of faith say, "I'm going to pray for you," simply as a silly attempt to have some kind of power over the other person and an attempt at one-up-manship. This, I think, is mildly offensive and is best ignored as foolish drivel.
Many years ago, my cousin gave birth to a stillborn child. Her OB was a devout Catholic and my cousin has faith of a vague and general kind. Her doctor asked for her permission to baptize the dead baby. My cousin was exhausted and said, "No, just let her be." Later, the doctor returned and said, "Well, I performed a baptism, and if you're going to sue anyone, sue me and not the hospital."
I think the doctor was being an ass, what do you think? I see no harm in his having done a baptism...I truly doubt that baptism is a magical requirement for getting through the doors of heaven, but hey, whatever floats your boat. (And just how effective would baptism be on someone who is already dead?) But, he wanted credit for doing it, and that is prideful and wrong.
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Edited by - duh on 02/03/2009 16:16:58 |
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BaftaBaby 
"Always entranced by cinema."
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Posted - 02/03/2009 : 16:25:08
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quote:
Originally posted by duh Improper Username
Nurse may be fired for offering to pray for patient.
Isn't that over-reacting just a bit?
Why should it be only the nurse who is expected to show tolerance for other beliefs? Why shouldn't the clients have the same expected of them?
On the other hand, why didn't the nurse just pray for the patient anyhow and privately, without offering it? At the very least, it would have done no harm. Did she want "credit" for doing it? I think Christ advised against public shows of piety such as those performed by the Pharisees.
If you're a Jewish or Muslim or Christian patient, and a nurse of a faith of one of the two faiths of which you are not a member offers to pray for you, why would you be offended, when all three faiths presumably have the same God?
If you're an atheist, offers of prayer should offend you least of all. Logically, why should you be offended if someone offers to invoke the blessings of their imaginary friend on your behalf? Just ask them to put in a good word with Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny while they're at it. ;)
I think sometimes a few people of faith say, "I'm going to pray for you," simply as a silly attempt to have some kind of power over the other person and an attempt at one-up-manship. This, I think, is mildly offensive and is best ignored as foolish drivel.
Many years ago, my cousin gave birth to a stillborn child. Her OB was a devout Catholic and my cousin's has faith of a vague and general kind. Her doctor asked for her permission to baptize the dead baby. My cousin was exhausted and said, "No, just let her be." Later, the doctor returned and said, "Well, I performed a baptism, and if you're going to sue anyone, sue me and not the hospital."
I think the doctor was being an ass, what do you think? I see no harm in his having done a baptism...I truly doubt that baptism is a magical requirement for getting through the doors of heaven, but hey, whatever floats your boat. (And just how effective would baptism be on someone who is already dead?) But, he wanted credit for doing it, and that is prideful and wrong.
Yeah, this was all over our news this morning. Always best to listen to BBC Radio4 for this kind of stuff, because they really do interview the people involved, including the nurse, hospital admin, etc. Anyway, it seems the nurse is from a heavy proselytizing sect and she'd been warned before when various patients complained that she kept bringing up the subject of religion while performing her nursing duties. Apparently some patients interpreted her offer as an indication they were going to die very soon, and it upset them. The most recent patient wasn't offended, but relayed her anxiety to the hospital admin because she thought others might be upset. As indeed it proved they had been.
So the story really isn't about an arbitrary and baseless decision. The patient - we tend not to call them clients over here  - apparently showed great tolerance. She just said, "No, thank you."
And, of course, many people on our talk shows today have made the point that when they're in the work place they don't expect someone of any religion to constantly bring up the subject as a way in to convert. One caller posed the question: how would everyone be reacting if the nurse were a Muslim? 
I was so sorry to hear about your cousin. And, yes, I totally agree - the doctor was out of line!
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Edited by - BaftaBaby on 02/03/2009 16:25:43 |
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ChocolateLady 
"500 Chocolate Delights"
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Posted - 02/04/2009 : 08:01:23
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Talk about your Sister Act!
(Sorry, I couldn't resist.)
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Wheelz
"FWFR%u2019ing like it%u2019s 1999"
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Posted - 02/04/2009 : 13:29:42
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The line from the story that jumped out at me was, "There are grounds for wondering whether the nurse�s sincere faith convictions about the efficacy of intercessory prayer are more strongly held than her commitment to a pattern of practice consistent with her professional role,"
That's a pretty strong allegation and it is absolutely the employer's duty to investigate.
And in your cousin's case, I have to disagree that there was "no harm in his having done a baptism." If she happened to have beliefs against baptism that were as strong as the doctor's in favor, I can see great potential for emotional harm. I would have sued him. |
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Whippersnapper. 
"A fourword thinking guy."
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Chris C 
"Four words, never backwards."
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ChocolateLady
"500 Chocolate Delights"
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Posted - 02/05/2009 : 06:49:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Wheelz
The line from the story that jumped out at me was, "There are grounds for wondering whether the nurse�s sincere faith convictions about the efficacy of intercessory prayer are more strongly held than her commitment to a pattern of practice consistent with her professional role,"
That's a pretty strong allegation and it is absolutely the employer's duty to investigate.
And in your cousin's case, I have to disagree that there was "no harm in his having done a baptism." If she happened to have beliefs against baptism that were as strong as the doctor's in favor, I can see great potential for emotional harm. I would have sued him.
Well, if had happend to me, I certainly would have sued him.
(But that's because I'm Jewish.)
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Sal[Au]pian
"Four ever European"
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Posted - 02/06/2009 : 15:20:20
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| I'd be really appalled if anyone serving me in a professional role offered to pray for me, and I would certainly complain. I'd also have some concerns that anyone who believes in the supernatural would not try as hard to save me in this life as someone who realises that this is it. However, it would be worse if she had just gone away and prayed in secret. For that reason, I'm more shocked about the baptism. (I also didn't realise that stillborn babies could be baptised.) As has been said, that could and may have caused real trauma for the parents. |
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duh
"catpurrs"
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Posted - 02/07/2009 : 06:14:36
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30 years ago, I saw a good cartoon, titled, "There IS prayer in schools."
It showed a few students sitting in their desks, with their books before them.
There were thought balloons above each one.
Above a boy: "Please God, don't let me fail this exam."
Above a girl, "Please God, make Biff ask me out to the prom."
Above another girl, "Please God, don't let me be pregnant." |
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Conan The Westy
"Father, Faithful Friend, Fwiffer"
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Posted - 02/07/2009 : 09:00:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Salopian
I'd also have some concerns that anyone who believes in the supernatural would not try as hard to save me in this life as someone who realises that this is it.
Funnily enough you might find it's more likely to be the reverse; the more evangelical Christians are less likely to be euthanasia enthusiasts.
quote:
However, it would be worse if she had just gone away and prayed in secret.
I won't tell you when I'm praying for you either.
(Can we get a smilie with a halo for these holier-than-thou moments.) |
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Sean 
"Necrosphenisciform anthropophagist."
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Posted - 02/07/2009 : 23:05:29
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A related story....
I was in hospital in Bolgatanga in northern Ghana with an unpleasant combination of malaria and typhoid. It's the sickest I've been in my life, I was on a blend of intravenous quinine (for the malaria) and pefloxacin (for the typhoid). One of the local officials I dealt with on a regular basis (for mediating with landowners on crop-damage compensation) dropped by to visit (I've forgotten his name, I'll call him Koffi). Koffi was a Christian of the very vocal variety, it was difficult to have a discussion with him about anything without Jesus being mentioned. He was aware that I and all my workmates (who're also geologists) were atheists.
Anyway, Koffi came into my room in the hospital with another guy who I didn't know, and asked if they could pray for me. I wasn't particularly lucid at the time, but was lucid enough to know that these guys had given up part of their evening to come down to the hospital for one reason; to help me get well. It wouldn't have seemed right to tell them thanks, but no thanks, so I agreed to let them pray, it couldn't do any harm and if it made them feel good then no problem.
So, one put his hand on my shoulder, they joined hands and the other put his hand on my ankle. They closed their eyes and started praying. Then the volume increased somewhat. Then it increased further. Then it became LOUD. And LOUDER. AND LOUDER!
Anyway, it was a situation I was totally unfamiliar with, and I started feeling really embarrassed, and seriously hoped that nobody was going to come into my room (I was expecting a visit from my workmates and/or the doctor or nurses). I really didn't want anyone to think that I was willingly a part of such ridiculousness. So, as the beseeching of Jesus to exorcise the typhoid demons from my body became more frantic and increasingly cacophonous I was hoping, no, I was praying it was going to end very, very soon. Fortunately it only lasted 5 minutes or so.
Needless to say the nasty chemicals flooding my bloodstream through a tube in my vein eventually did their job and I recovered. Koffi of course credited Jesus for helping out.  I did find it reassuring that Jesus even helps atheists get well if someone who believes in him asks loudly enough. 
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Edited by - Sean on 02/07/2009 23:08:04 |
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Sal[Au]pian
"Four ever European"
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Posted - 02/18/2009 : 00:41:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Conan The Westy
quote:
Originally posted by Salopian
I'd also have some concerns that anyone who believes in the supernatural would not try as hard to save me in this life as someone who realises that this is it.
Funnily enough you might find it's more likely to be the reverse; the more evangelical Christians are less likely to be euthanasia enthusiasts.
Sure, but isn't that because they imagine that suicide sends people to Hell? Talk of "going to a better place" doesn't fill one with confidence that they would try their upmost to keep one in this place, if that is what one wanted. |
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Sal[Au]pian
"Four ever European"
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Posted - 02/18/2009 : 00:50:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Se�n
I did find it reassuring that Jesus even helps atheists get well if someone who believes in him asks loudly enough.
That reminds me (care of Q.I.) of the Nobel physicist asked why he had a horse shoe on his wall. "I understand it brings you luck whether you believe in it or not."
I've drawn a horse shoe and a four-leaved clover on every test and exam I've done since I was about twelve. The stupid(est) thing is that I'm not properly superstitious at all. I cannot offer any real explanation about why I do that, other than I suppose once I'd started there didn't seem a good enough reason to stop (and risk it). I also don't walk under ladders unless I force myself, and by extension don't walk between the legs of roadsigns etc. even though that is not supposed to be unlucky. I guess it's just like personal tradition or something. I did have some bad luck on this Friday the 13th, though: I saw an almost worthless film called Friday the 13th. |
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Conan The Westy
"Father, Faithful Friend, Fwiffer"
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Posted - 02/18/2009 : 10:30:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Salopian
quote:
Originally posted by Conan The Westy
Funnily enough you might find it's more likely to be the reverse; the more evangelical Christians are less likely to be euthanasia enthusiasts.
Sure, but isn't that because they imagine that suicide sends people to Hell? Talk of "going to a better place" doesn't fill one with confidence that they would try their upmost to keep one in this place, if that is what one wanted.
Not at all. Suicide isn't the problem; the dilemma is letting an unsaved patient die before making a decision for Christ.
Once we've got your soul sorted out for its heavenly destination THEN you can worry about the quality of the palliative care. |
Edited by - Conan The Westy on 02/18/2009 10:31:00 |
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Sal[Au]pian
"Four ever European"
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Posted - 02/18/2009 : 16:34:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Conan The Westy
Suicide isn't the problem; the dilemma is letting an unsaved patient die before making a decision for Christ.
Once we've got your soul sorted out for its heavenly destination THEN you can worry about the quality of the palliative care.
Evangelicals should love euthanasia then. Get people converted and then dispatch them before they can change their minds. |
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RockGolf
"1500+ reviews. 1 joke."
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Posted - 02/18/2009 : 16:46:32
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Back on topic, if this was a pattern of behaviour, as it seems to have been, then I support the suspension.
1) If the proselytizer were non-Christian, you can bet a lot of people who support her would now be opposed to her pushing her belief system on Christians.
2) If I were one of her patients who refused, I'd have at least a little doubt that I was being offered the same level of care as those who accepted, perhaps making the prayer a self-fulfilling prophecy.
3) Time that she is spending praying with some patients is time that she could be using to do some actual good. |
Edited by - RockGolf on 02/18/2009 16:48:54 |
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Nurse suspended for offering to pray for patient
