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BaftaBaby 
"Always entranced by cinema."
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 Posted - 09/01/2009 : 00:54:34
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If any Brits would like to sign the 10 Downing Street petition to apologize for the scurrilous treatment of the genius Turing whose work on the Enigma machine and related activities helped so much in WWII, please go here and add your name.
Cheers
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Edited by - BaftaBaby on 09/01/2009 00:55:26 |
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benj clews 
"...."
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Posted - 09/01/2009 : 10:34:29
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| Absolutely added my name to this. |
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Chris C 
"Four words, never backwards."
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Posted - 09/01/2009 : 15:47:58
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quote:
Originally posted by benj clews
Absolutely added my name to this.
Me too |
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Rovark 
"Luck-pushing, rule-bending, chance-taking reviewer"
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Posted - 09/01/2009 : 20:32:27
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Count me in at petitioner number 21,103
Good spot BBabe |
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demonic
"Cinemaniac"
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Posted - 09/02/2009 : 01:03:26
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| Signed. |
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Whippersnapper. 
"A fourword thinking guy."
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Posted - 09/02/2009 : 01:51:05
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Who exactly is Gordon being asked to apologise to?
Don't apologies have to be given to someone?
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Beanmimo
"August review site"
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Posted - 09/02/2009 : 09:41:45
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I would but I don't meet the criteris though I would say that his family would probably appreciate the apology.
And does signing a petition Anonymously actually count? |
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BaftaBaby
"Always entranced by cinema."
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Posted - 09/02/2009 : 10:09:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Beanmimo
I would but I don't meet the criteris though I would say that his family would probably appreciate the apology.
And does signing a petition Anonymously actually count?
Who said it was anonynmous? It must meet the criteria for an official government petition. The info is collected; it's not published on the petition. It's a right granted by the government, whichever one's in office, and channelled through the official Number Ten Downing Street website.
I'm not sure there is any Turing family left.
And the apology is for the inhumane way Turing was treated by the then government, so the Prime Minister is channeling the apology as a representative of his office, in the way that the German government, through its President, issued an apology to the Jews for the holocaust.
In case anyone isn't aware of Turing's case, he led the team which cracked the Enigma code and other barriers to the Allies winning the war. And then after the war, still a young man, he was pretty well banished from government and war work, though its now publicly acknowledged he'd have been a remarkable asset in the Cold War.
Not only was he hounded out, it was because he was gay. That's it. No other reason. He even agreed to undergo what the officials called "a cure." This involved being given dosages of estrogen to the extent that he started growing breasts.
Even given the homophobic attitudes we still see in society, it's difficult to imagine the anti-gay virulence that presided at the time.
Turing had been an intensely private man, devoted to serving his country at a time when his contribution was vital. He knew the work was top secret, so probably never expected nor sought public celebration. But I'm pretty sure he, nor I, nor you, nor anyone, would have expected the mental torture meted out by the very people he'd helped to save.
He finally couldn't take it anymore and committed suicide. He was 41.
An official apology would at least acknowledge we [collectively] were wrong.
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Beanmimo
"August review site"
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Posted - 09/02/2009 : 10:29:14
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quote:
Originally posted by BaftaBabe
quote:
Originally posted by Beanmimo
I would but I don't meet the criteria though I would say that his family would probably appreciate the apology.
And does signing a petition Anonymously actually count?
Who said it was anonynmous?
If you look down the list of the first 500, not too far in somebody has signed it Annonymously. |
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BaftaBaby
"Always entranced by cinema."
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Posted - 09/02/2009 : 11:45:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Beanmimo
quote:
Originally posted by BaftaBabe
quote:
Originally posted by Beanmimo
I would but I don't meet the criteria though I would say that his family would probably appreciate the apology.
And does signing a petition Anonymously actually count?
Who said it was anonynmous?
If you look down the list of the first 500, not too far in somebody has signed it Annonymously.
You have that option for the public list, but, trust me, all the names and addresses are collected or you're not able to proceed. So Downing Street has a complete record of signatories - plus there's a coding gizmo to prevent multiple signings. Cyber democracy in action!
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Whippersnapper.
"A fourword thinking guy."
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Posted - 09/02/2009 : 13:45:34
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quote:
Originally posted by BaftaBabe
quote:
Originally posted by Beanmimo
I would but I don't meet the criteris though I would say that his family would probably appreciate the apology.
And does signing a petition Anonymously actually count?
Who said it was anonynmous? It must meet the criteria for an official government petition. The info is collected; it's not published on the petition. It's a right granted by the government, whichever one's in office, and channelled through the official Number Ten Downing Street website.
I'm not sure there is any Turing family left.
And the apology is for the inhumane way Turing was treated by the then government, so the Prime Minister is channeling the apology as a representative of his office, in the way that the German government, through its President, issued an apology to the Jews for the holocaust.
Yeah, OK, but please answer my question as who this apology is TO.
In your example there were some people, Jews, who deserved and wanted an apology. (I'm not comparing the Holocaust and Turing's treatment incidentally.) It seems to me to be a principle of apologising that you apologise TO SOMEONE. That, I always assumed, was the point of an apology. I can't see who that someone is in this case.
What does an apology to no-one, or no-one in particular, actually mean? Does it do anything? If so, what?
Let me try to put it this way. When someone offers an apology about something to somebody, for it to have any meaning the receiver must trust the giver to feel genuine regret, otherwise it's just so empty. Now if you devalue the idea of an apology so that you DEMAND that someone who was not personally responsible, or even knew anyone who was, is pressured to offer an apology to no-one in particular for something which happened 50 years ago and which could never happen now because the law has long since been changed, then how much meaning is there in that? And when we allow, indeed demand, that apologies are that meaningless, what happens when we need a real apology? Can we trust there to be any genuine regret any more? OK, so you get a pro-forma apology. You don't believe the person or organisation cares a damn, but they mouthed the words. Happy now?
Generally, it's better to accept an apology rather than demand one.
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BaftaBaby
"Always entranced by cinema."
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Posted - 09/02/2009 : 14:28:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Whippersnapper
Generally, it's better to accept an apology rather than demand one.
I accept your apology that you're being pedantic over humane. There's plenty of answers to your callow question online. I do hope this verbal diversion isn't a cover for any residual homophobia? It's morally right to sign this petition. End of.
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RockGolf 
"1500+ reviews. 1 joke."
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Posted - 09/02/2009 : 16:06:53
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It probably has nothing to do with homophobia, but I myself feel a weariness of and for historical apologies.
As time goes on and more and more events from the past are considered barbaric by current-day standards. Are we to perpetually look back and scoff at how much more morally correct we were than our forebears?
And if so, what terrible crimes will our generation be made to apologize for in abstentia? Allowing our kids to be couch potatoes? Trans fats? Michael Bay films?
Yeah, the treatment of Turing was abysmal. So was the treatment of a lot of mentally handicapped people, disable people, people of different skin colour, different religion, even left-handedness.
Move bloody on. Official apologies of this type mean nothing. |
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BaftaBaby
"Always entranced by cinema."
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Posted - 09/02/2009 : 17:15:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Ro�k G01f, MD+
Yeah, the treatment of Turing was abysmal. So was the treatment of a lot of mentally handicapped people, disable people, people of different skin colour, different religion, even left-handedness.
Move bloody on. Official apologies of this type mean nothing.
... I wonder how many of them played such a pivotal role in winning a world war, used so willingly by those who directed the war and then hypocritcally destroyed. And, double-whammy, keeping the info out of "offical history" for so many decades.
Did you read about Turing in school? No, me neither. It's not so much the apology, it's setting the record straight [no pun intended] - and in a way that gets maximum publicity.
I didn't start this petition, nor am I gay, but I'm grateful to whoever took advantage of the government option to post it. I think Brits should have some antidote to the more widespread saccharine version of history which turns out to be fairy-tales. [No further pun intended]
You can only "move on" from something if it's already known. Nor is there a choice between apologies for Turing and apologies for the treatment of groups of victims. These kind of apologies are on a completely different level from I'm sorry I ran over your cat.
Suppose Turing had been your dad and you only knew that he'd committed suicide. Would you still not want the truth to be known? Would you still just want to move on.
Look - no-one has to sign the petition. I honestly don't understand why you would want to trivialize it for those who do want to. What do you gain by that?
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Whippersnapper.
"A fourword thinking guy."
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Posted - 09/02/2009 : 19:40:13
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quote:
Originally posted by BaftaBabe
quote:
Originally posted by Whippersnapper
Generally, it's better to accept an apology rather than demand one.
I accept your apology that you're being pedantic over humane. There's plenty of answers to your callow question online. I do hope this verbal diversion isn't a cover for any residual homophobia? It's morally right to sign this petition. End of.
Smug.
Still, I see your difficulty in justifying it on rational grounds.
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demonic
"Cinemaniac"
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Posted - 09/02/2009 : 19:41:58
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I think the issue isn't that Turing or Turing's family would necessarily be able to recieve or recognise the apology - it's that it would be historically noted that the government expressed remorse for the appalling way he was treated after pretty well saving our country from National Socialism; that would be significant. It would point out that a wrong is righted; it would also send out a very positive message to those who still feel persecuted or sidelined by homophobia, and perhaps most importantly it would tell the huge number of ill educated bigots still clinging on to their beliefs that a man can be idolised decades after his death regardless of his sexuality, race or religious beliefs. It would be a positive thing, and what harm in having a positive thing happen in our shitty country for a change?  |
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Topic |
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Petition for Alan Turing
