| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Downtown |
Posted - 05/08/2008 : 18:28:44
Best wishes to our friends in Israel, a beacon of civilization shining through a wilderness of medievalism. |
| 15 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| randall |
Posted - 05/16/2008 : 17:57:24
FOOD FIGHT! What a thread! Thanks, everybody!!!!!!!
By the way, I discovered recently that a group of lions is called a pride. |
| BiggerBoat |
Posted - 05/16/2008 : 17:13:17
quote:
Originally posted by BaftaBabe
Oh God - I've missed you!!
Thanks Baffy. I always feel like I've farted in a lift when I join in discussions though.
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| BaftaBaby |
Posted - 05/15/2008 : 16:48:05
quote:
Originally posted by BiggerBoat
Oh God - I've missed you!!
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| BiggerBoat |
Posted - 05/15/2008 : 16:30:28
Funny this should come up as I was chatting to Jesus the other day (I know him reasonably well- he drinks in my local) about this sort of thing. I saw him at the end of the bar reading the �International� section of a broadsheet newspaper, so I joshed with him by saying, �Hey, J-Man, I thought you died to save us? Doesn�t look like it did much good did it?!�
Now I�d always thought he was quite good-natured, serene even, but that really riled him.
�Look,� he said, �I never said I was going to save anyone and even if I did you�ve got to understand that it was at the end of a very hard day. I�d walked bloody miles with a ruddy great cross on my back; some joker had put a crown of thorns on my head and if that wasn�t bad enough a retarded Roman was poking me in the chest with a pointed stick before I died, so excuse me if I said something I didn�t mean.�
�Ah, like when Hilary �misspoke�?� I asked.
�Yeah, kind of, except she plain out lied whilst raping the English language.� He said, still clearly miffed.
�So what about all this trouble in the Middle East with your old lot, is that going to be resolved any time soon?� I asked.
�Well, they�re not �my old lot�, I am in fact Jewish.� He said.
�What, still? I thought you were the first Christian?�
�And exactly where in all my teachings did you find me saying, �Oh, and by the way folks, after I�m dead can you make sure that you take my life and then use it as some sort of emotional crutch for your own pitiful life and dress it up it all kinds of dogma that I never recommended and then go around the world stealing everything you can under the pretence that you�re following the one true path�? Bollocks to that BB, Christianity is worse than the friggin� plague as far as I�m concerned. I was trying to bring everyone together and what did they do as soon as I popped off? They �interpreted� my words and then set thousands of new strains of the same thing loose on an unsuspecting public. I�d like to take my name of the credits but it�s a bit late now.�
�And what about Israel? Were they really promised that land� I asked.
�Yeah, originally, when there was no one else there, but it�s a bit different when you�ve moved away and then decide you want it back isn�t it? Have you heard of the Lost Tribes?�
�Is that something to do with Peter Pan?�
�No you dick,� he said taking a slurp of his pint, �The land was given to twelve tribes. Three joined up to form the Kingdom of Judah, the Jews, who have since reclaimed the land but the other nine are still missing and, in effect hold as much claim to the land as the Jews. Now, should all these tribes rock up after someone does some kind of DNA test, do you think the Jews are going to share? I don�t think so somehow.�
�So what will happen?� I asked. This was interesting.
�What do you care? You�re all fucked anyway.� He snarled.
�Fucked? How?� This didn�t sound good.
�Apocalypse baby. That great self-fulfilling prophecy that allows you all to think you can do whatever you want with no consequences. This planet was a present and you shat on it. The planet will survive but you lot have had it. Not one of you will survive.
This was all pretty heavy. �And is there a heaven?� I asked, gulping.
�No.�
He turned back to his paper at this point but the second half of the match was starting on the pub TV so I went and watched that. We won 2-0 you�ll be glad to know.
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| GHcool |
Posted - 05/14/2008 : 01:45:52
quote:
Originally posted by Se�n
quote:
Originally posted by GHcool
Sean is wrong on both counts: (1) Israel never "plays the Holocaust guilt card" when it receives mere criticism and (2) nobody ever accused Sean of being anti-Semitic.
Perhaps I'm displaying my ignorance of what exactly 'antisemitism' is. I assumed 'criticism of everyone in Israel' and 'antisemitism' are almost the same thing (although antisemitism would also include discrimination against Jews not living in Israel).quote:
Point 1 deserves further discussion. A lot of criticism of Israel is completely legitimate. In fact, the Israeli media is full of criticism of Israel every single day of the week. The line between legitimate criticism and overt anti-Semitism is crossed when people distribute deliberate disinformation (such as Hezbollah's false claim that Israel disseminates AIDS to Muslim world), when people make outlandish comparisons between Israel and the worst regimes in world history (Nazi Germany and apartheid South Africa are the most popular comparisons), when people selectively focus on Israel as being among "the worst" countries in the world, wishing for Israel's destruction, and a other forms of intellectual dishonesty and ignorance in the form of racism.
I've never heard any of those, although no garbage spread by the likes of Hezbollah surprises me. Those claims are quite ludicrous and should be regarded with absolute contempt. I'd expect many in the Middle East to believe them though.
You're right, Sean. Many people in the Middle East do believe these lies and false analogies. Unfortunately, many people in Western countries also believe and spread them. Check out the photos here. |
| Sean |
Posted - 05/14/2008 : 00:48:37
quote:
Originally posted by GHcool
Sean is wrong on both counts: (1) Israel never "plays the Holocaust guilt card" when it receives mere criticism and (2) nobody ever accused Sean of being anti-Semitic.
Perhaps I'm displaying my ignorance of what exactly 'antisemitism' is. I assumed 'criticism of everyone in Israel' and 'antisemitism' are almost the same thing (although antisemitism would also include discrimination against Jews not living in Israel).quote:
Point 1 deserves further discussion. A lot of criticism of Israel is completely legitimate. In fact, the Israeli media is full of criticism of Israel every single day of the week. The line between legitimate criticism and overt anti-Semitism is crossed when people distribute deliberate disinformation (such as Hezbollah's false claim that Israel disseminates AIDS to Muslim world), when people make outlandish comparisons between Israel and the worst regimes in world history (Nazi Germany and apartheid South Africa are the most popular comparisons), when people selectively focus on Israel as being among "the worst" countries in the world, wishing for Israel's destruction, and a other forms of intellectual dishonesty and ignorance in the form of racism.
I've never heard any of those, although no garbage spread by the likes of Hezbollah surprises me. Those claims are quite ludicrous and should be regarded with absolute contempt. I'd expect many in the Middle East to believe them though. |
| GHcool |
Posted - 05/14/2008 : 00:09:31
quote:
Originally posted by Se�n
quote:
Originally posted by Downtown
Perhaps the next time you get defensive at the implication that your criticism of Israel might be motivated by antisemitism (which just as a reminder wasn't from me), you should consider that there might be a correlation between those accusations and your habit of arbitrarily singling out Israel for criticism of how they fight a war they haven't started.
Well it works both ways. It is virtually impossible to question any use of power by Israel's military without being accused of antisemitism. Israeli governments have made a habit of playing the "Holocaust guilt" card as justifcation for anything they do. (That approach is not uncommon; Bush et al were using the "We're 9/11 victims so that's why we can do this" approach for as long as they could get away with it).
So yeah, when I criticised the Israeli government over the fraudulent passport fiasco, and it was immediately bounced back at me as a criticism of EVERYONE IN ISRAEL, then naturally I became defensive and felt slightly sickened. If criticising everyone in Israel isn't antisemitism then I'd like to know what it is.
Sean is wrong on both counts: (1) Israel never "plays the Holocaust guilt card" when it receives mere criticism and (2) nobody ever accused Sean of being anti-Semitic.
Point 1 deserves further discussion. A lot of criticism of Israel is completely legitimate. In fact, the Israeli media is full of criticism of Israel every single day of the week. The line between legitimate criticism and overt anti-Semitism is crossed when people distribute deliberate disinformation (such as Hezbollah's false claim that Israel disseminates AIDS to Muslim world), when people make outlandish comparisons between Israel and the worst regimes in world history (Nazi Germany and apartheid South Africa are the most popular comparisons), when people selectively focus on Israel as being among "the worst" countries in the world, wishing for Israel's destruction, and a other forms of intellectual dishonesty and ignorance in the form of racism.
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| Sean |
Posted - 05/13/2008 : 23:43:03
quote:
Originally posted by Downtown
Perhaps the next time you get defensive at the implication that your criticism of Israel might be motivated by antisemitism (which just as a reminder wasn't from me), you should consider that there might be a correlation between those accusations and your habit of arbitrarily singling out Israel for criticism of how they fight a war they haven't started.
Well it works both ways. It is virtually impossible to question any use of power by Israel's military without being accused of antisemitism. Israeli governments have made a habit of playing the "Holocaust guilt" card as justifcation for anything they do. (That approach is not uncommon; Bush et al were using the "We're 9/11 victims so that's why we can do this" approach for as long as they could get away with it).
So yeah, when I criticised the Israeli government over the fraudulent passport fiasco, and it was immediately bounced back at me as a criticism of EVERYONE IN ISRAEL, then naturally I became defensive and felt slightly sickened. If criticising everyone in Israel isn't antisemitism then I'd like to know what it is.
And for the record I totally fail to understand antisemitism. I understand (but obviously am disgusted by) anti-black or anti-Asian sentiment, at least they look different and I could understand how a one-eyed redneck could harbour such sentiments. But antisemitism? I don't get it at all.
And I suppose there's no harm in me re-mentioning that Orphaned Land are in my favourite-bands-ever list, and yep, they're Israeli. (And anyone who even suspects they may like folk/rock/metal who hasn't heard "Mabool" is missing out in a massive way).
quote:
If you really support Israel's right to defend itself, then prove it by standing up for that right at least as often as you question how they exercise it.
You'll note that I haven't mentioned "right to defense". I don't believe the human species had any right to produce 6.5 billion members, but what's the point in talking about that? I mention "cause and effect" or "action and consequence" which is the way I look at Israel's relationship with it's neighbours, in the same way I look at the US/UK presence in Iraq. Deontology is a failed basis for global politics. How many wars over the centuries have been fought because they're RIGHT, rather than because the end result was going to be beneficial? Perhaps it's time our species grew out of one-dimensional "eye-for-an-eye" politics and seriously considered consequentialism. The Northern Ireland conflict came to an end because most of the interested parties did precisely this, and the deontologists (Paisley et. al.) were forced (eventually) to follow suit. |
| Downtown |
Posted - 05/13/2008 : 20:34:00
quote:
When Downtown said Israel was to be trusted, I took him to mean that the system of government in Israel ie a liberal democracy, was very solidly established and very unlikely to change, whereas in most Arab countries there is a regime which could be overturned at any time in the future with very unclear consequences. Even if the regime doesn't fall, it may have to change its position to placate its (largely anti-Western) population. Egypt, Jordan, The Lebanon and Saudi Arabia all more or less fall into this category.
The Saud family control their kingdom with an iron fist, and their hold on the country is a thousand times stronger than the Shah's was...they're not going anywhere, their government is quite stable and I expect it to continue to be. I still don't trust them...I'm thinking the fact that the Saudi government supports the seminaries that educated 19 pilots to came to the United States might have something to do with it... |
| Downtown |
Posted - 05/13/2008 : 20:29:07
quote:
I don't bother paying lip service to the outrage of Iran/Syria's arming of Hezbollah for the same reason I don't bother saying "suicide bombers blowing up civilians are bad". I think most (hopefully all?) reading this thread are aware that those who want an Islamic caliphate in the Middle East with public beheadings of apostates etc are the B-grade citizens of our planet.
Perhaps the next time you get defensive at the implication that your criticism of Israel might be motivated by antisemitism (which just as a reminder wasn't from me), you should consider that there might be a correlation between those accusations and your habit of arbitrarily singling out Israel for criticism of how they fight a war they haven't started. All I see is endless criticism of Israel without even an acknowledgment of the constant state of siege it's under, until someone wrestles it out of you. It's this perpetual selective amnesia from the global community - led by Europe - that leads many to believe anti-Zionism is usually motivated by antisemitism, even though the two are hardly synonymous. It's almost as if every time Israel is attacked, it was the first time.
If you really support Israel's right to defend itself, then prove it by standing up for that right at least as often as you question how they exercise it. |
| Sean |
Posted - 05/13/2008 : 01:44:19
I don't bother paying lip service to the outrage of Iran/Syria's arming of Hezbollah for the same reason I don't bother saying "suicide bombers blowing up civilians are bad". I think most (hopefully all?) reading this thread are aware that those who want an Islamic caliphate in the Middle East with public beheadings of apostates etc are the B-grade citizens of our planet.
Rather than regarding the tit-for-tat response to rocket attacks as 'wrong' or 'bad', I mostly find it depressing. Each response is likely to create more 'terrorists' (call them what you want). It makes it inevitable that low-tenor conflict on Israel's borders will continue for ever, and ever, and ever. Eye-for-an-eye violence is the resort of those who are not aware of any solution to conflict, and this may be because there is no solution. 
quote:
Originally posted by Whippersnapper
On the matter of Mossad in NZ, from my perspective the matter was incredibly trivial and the importance given to it shows 1. how little of real political importance happens in NZ
You are correct. I like it this way. NZ's irrelevance is exactly what makes our passports desirable to criminals and intelligence agencies. Some years ago my passport did a 'disappearing act' in the hands of the Guinean immigration department in Conakry, Guinea for what I'm guessing was this reason.quote:
and 2. how badly the prissy NZ govt handled a relatively small matter which would have been sorted out without much publicity in most other countries.
It was treated as a criminal issue in the absence of any representation by the Israeli government and their refusal to become involved. I'm guessing this could have been 'swept under the carpet' if the Israeli government had wanted that. They obviously didn't place much value on their relationship with the NZ government, and the feeling was obviously mutual.quote:
When Downtown said Israel was to be trusted, I took him to mean that the system of government in Israel ie a liberal democracy, was very solidly established and very unlikely to change, whereas in most Arab countries there is a regime which could be overturned at any time in the future with very unclear consequences. Even if the regime doesn't fall, it may have to change its position to placate its (largely anti-Western) population. Egypt, Jordan, The Lebanon and Saudi Arabia all more or less fall into this category.
If that's what he meant, then I agree. |
| Whippersnapper. |
Posted - 05/13/2008 : 00:21:39
Your remarks about Israel tolerance to collateral damage are ill-informed. Israel takes a lot of trouble to minimise collateral damage - it's bad publicity for a start.
Several supposed examples of Israeli attacks killing Palestinian women and children are probably false. A very recent case where a woman and four children were killed and attributed to an Israeli attack - and widely publicised as such - has now been explained as Palestinian munitions exploding. Another famous case was where it was claimed an Israeli tank fired at children playing on a Gaza beach. In fact the most likely explanation of that was that the children probably found and started playing with unexploded munitions on the beach and that set off the explosion. The thing about these cases is that the initial event is always in big headlines with a Palestinian claim and only after investigation does the story become unlikely, but that's not news any more.
On the other hand, given that Hamas and their ilk deliberately hide themselves amongst civilian populations, it is inevitable that, if Israel wants to stop rocket attacks on its citizens, then a certain amount of collateral damage to Palestinian civilians is inevitable. In such a situation things sometimes go wrong and people sometimes go too far too in combat situations. No army in the world is good at charging its own soldiers with crimes against others and Israel isn't any different.
On the matter of Mossad in NZ, from my perspective the matter was incredibly trivial and the importance given to it shows 1. how little of real political importance happens in NZ and 2. how badly the prissy NZ govt handled a relatively small matter which would have been sorted out without much publicity in most other countries. It's probable that all major powers are spying on each other all the time, including and perhaps particularly allies, but alliances are not broken by it. Your remark that friends do not do such things to their friends is really way off the mark when you are talking about friendly states. In any case, Israel was not motivated to hurt NZ interests, merely to obtain some false identities to use for covert purposes.
When Downtown said Israel was to be trusted, I took him to mean that the system of government in Israel ie a liberal democracy, was very solidly established and very unlikely to change, whereas in most Arab countries there is a regime which could be overturned at any time in the future with very unclear consequences. Even if the regime doesn't fall, it may have to change its position to placate its (largely anti-Western) population. Egypt, Jordan, The Lebanon and Saudi Arabia all more or less fall into this category.
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| Downtown |
Posted - 05/13/2008 : 00:09:16
I'll tell you what, Sean: when New Zealand and the rest of the world show some interest in preventing Iran and Syria from building an army of mercenaries in southern Lebanon intent on raining death down on the innocent families living in northern Israel, New Zealand and the rest of the world will have some say in how Israel defends itself from said army. The list of countries that were volunteering to send "peacekeeping" UN troops to the region in summer 2006 was downright pathetic, and hardly represented the list of countries that criticized the IDF for how they responded to that unprovoked attack. You could at least pay lip service to what an outrage it is that the Syrians and Iranians are using Lebanese soil for their proxy war while you're criticizing the Israelis for defending themselves in a way you consider inappropriate. |
| Sean |
Posted - 05/12/2008 : 23:40:26
quote:
Originally posted by Downtown
quote:
Originally posted by Se�n
quote:
Originally posted by Downtown
But I was really just reminding everyone of why it's so important to stand by Israel as an ally, it being the only country in that part of the world that the West can really trust, something every country but the United States refuses to admit even though they all know it.
I'm not sure what you mean by 'trust'. You mean honesty? A couple of Mossad agents came to NZ about 4 years ago to fraudulently secure NZ passports, i.e., so they could 'do their work' overseas while pretending to be New Zealanders. What was even more disgraceful than this disgusting act was the fact it took the Israeli government a year to apologise. So why would I trust them? I don't.
Because despite all the criticism they get over totally unimportant incidents
I don't regard it as "totally unimportant". Friendly countries don't do such things to their 'friends', and with that incident the Israeli government made it clear that they don't care what the New Zealand government or New Zealanders think of them.quote:
like this which are selectively reported in the media, countries like yours can still rely on Israel to do your dirty work for you, like destroying nuclear weapons programs of rogue regimes (the real weapons programs, not the fake ones made up by the Bush Administration) even when they already know that they'll be criticized for it by the very same governments that secretly are breathing a huge sigh of relief.
I admit I am curious as to how 'the world' would react if there was another Osirak incident. Preventing those with a medieval mindset from possessing nuclear weapons gets my full support.
Most of the criticism Israel receives for flexing it's military muscle comes from it's very high tolerance for 'collateral damage'; e.g., using a missile to destroy a building and kill all men, women and children in the building because there may be a 'wanted man' in the building. And for 'punishing' the civilians of south Lebanon for allowing Hezbollah to exist in their midst etc. |
| Downtown |
Posted - 05/12/2008 : 16:01:59
quote:
Originally posted by Se�n
quote:
Originally posted by Downtown
But I was really just reminding everyone of why it's so important to stand by Israel as an ally, it being the only country in that part of the world that the West can really trust, something every country but the United States refuses to admit even though they all know it.
I'm not sure what you mean by 'trust'. You mean honesty? A couple of Mossad agents came to NZ about 4 years ago to fraudulently secure NZ passports, i.e., so they could 'do their work' overseas while pretending to be New Zealanders. What was even more disgraceful than this disgusting act was the fact it took the Israeli government a year to apologise. So why would I trust them? I don't.
Because despite all the criticism they get over totally unimportant incidents like this which are selectively reported in the media, countries like yours can still rely on Israel to do your dirty work for you, like destroying nuclear weapons programs of rogue regimes (the real weapons programs, not the fake ones made up by the Bush Administration) even when they already know that they'll be criticized for it by the very same governments that secretly are breathing a huge sigh of relief. |
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