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Downtown 
"Welcome back, Billy Buck"
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 Posted - 05/08/2008 : 18:28:44
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| Best wishes to our friends in Israel, a beacon of civilization shining through a wilderness of medievalism. |
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GHcool 
"Forever a curious character."
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Posted - 05/08/2008 : 21:34:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Downtown
Best wishes to our friends in Israel, a beacon of civilization shining through a wilderness of medievalism.
Thanks for starting this thread, Downtown, but its a shame you had to begin it in such an obnoxious way. The 60th year of Israeli independence has nothing to do with Palestinian or Saudi Arabian politics. And I would hardly call Jordan a part of "a wilderness of medievalism."
That being said, I'd also like to wish Israel and Israelis a happy and safe Independence Day. |
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Downtown
"Welcome back, Billy Buck"
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Posted - 05/08/2008 : 21:40:21
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The 60th anniversary of the creation of the State of Israel is also the 60th anniversary of the Arabs' first attempts to destroy it and "drive them into the sea." So yeah...it has everything to do with them, and if being reminded of that fact is unpleasant, well...that's just too bad.
But I was really just reminding everyone of why it's so important to stand by Israel as an ally, it being the only country in that part of the world that the West can really trust, something every country but the United States refuses to admit even though they all know it. |
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GHcool
"Forever a curious character."
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Posted - 05/08/2008 : 22:05:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Downtown
The 60th anniversary of the creation of the State of Israel is also the 60th anniversary of the Arabs' first attempts to destroy it and "drive them into the sea." So yeah...it has everything to do with them, and if being reminded of that fact is unpleasant, well...that's just too bad.
But I was really just reminding everyone of why it's so important to stand by Israel as an ally, it being the only country in that part of the world that the West can really trust, something every country but the United States refuses to admit even though they all know it.
I agree with you about Israel being an ally of the United States and all that, but your statement is still obnoxious and some of it isn't even true. Jordan is not currently "a wilderness of medievalism," 1948 does not mark the first time Arabs tried to destroy the Jews in the land now called Israel, and the point of Israel's Independence Day is to celebrate Israel's independence, and not to celebrate others' failures and faults.
Israeli life doesn't always have to be compared with life in Arab countries, favorably or unfavorably, every time Israel is mentioned. Israeli Independence Day is this week. That's the beginning and end of the story. No need to speak about the ills of the rest of the world. Sadly, this is the fallacy that much of the world buys into: that Israel cannot be discussed without being compared to its neighboring Arab nations. The Arab-Israeli conflict is not college football. |
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Sean
"Necrosphenisciform anthropophagist."
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Posted - 05/09/2008 : 01:35:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Downtown
But I was really just reminding everyone of why it's so important to stand by Israel as an ally, it being the only country in that part of the world that the West can really trust, something every country but the United States refuses to admit even though they all know it.
I'm not sure what you mean by 'trust'. You mean honesty? A couple of Mossad agents came to NZ about 4 years ago to fraudulently secure NZ passports, i.e., so they could 'do their work' overseas while pretending to be New Zealanders. What was even more disgraceful than this disgusting act was the fact it took the Israeli government a year to apologise. So why would I trust them? I don't. |
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GHcool
"Forever a curious character."
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Posted - 05/09/2008 : 02:08:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Se�n
quote:
Originally posted by Downtown
But I was really just reminding everyone of why it's so important to stand by Israel as an ally, it being the only country in that part of the world that the West can really trust, something every country but the United States refuses to admit even though they all know it.
I'm not sure what you mean by 'trust'. You mean honesty? A couple of Mossad agents came to NZ about 4 years ago to fraudulently secure NZ passports, i.e., so they could 'do their work' overseas while pretending to be New Zealanders. What was even more disgraceful than this disgusting act was the fact it took the Israeli government a year to apologise. So why would I trust them? I don't.
I think its clear by Downtown's context that "trust" refers to the level of reliability and cooperation that a nation can expect from another nation over a long period of time. I don't think it refers to "honesty" on the individual case by case level. Furthermore, Sean's distrust of "them" (meaning all Israelis, I suppose), is not shared by the government of his country and hasn't been since 2005. |
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Sean
"Necrosphenisciform anthropophagist."
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Posted - 05/09/2008 : 03:21:47
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quote:
Originally posted by GHcool
Furthermore, Sean's distrust of "them" (meaning all Israelis, I suppose)
Please don't play the "He doesn't like the Israeli government therefore he doesn't like Israelis so must be an anti-Semite" line with me, Guy. That's become totally stale. I thought better of you, actually. It's crystal clear from my post that I'm referring to the Israeli government. And no, I don't trust 'them'. What they did was an act of arrogance and contempt for New Zealanders. It reminded me of the contempt shown for New Zealand by the French government before and after the sinking of the Rainbow Warrior. It also took a long time for that damage to naturally repair itself.
Sure, after a year the Israeli government 'fixed' things at the diplomatic level with a public apology, and the NZ government promptly restored full diplomatic relations. Thats simple diplomacy. But if your friend punched you in the face and then apologised the next day, is he suddenly going to be your friend again? |
Edited by - Sean on 05/09/2008 03:44:31 |
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Sean
"Necrosphenisciform anthropophagist."
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Posted - 05/09/2008 : 03:42:21
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I still don't get the 'trust' part. If DT means "to be able to rely on to be relatively stable and democratic and respectful towards it's own citizens" then I agree wholeheartedly. I don't want to live anywhere in the Middle East, but if forced at gunpoint ( ) then Israel would be the place. There are still too many there in favour of a theocracy for my liking, but at least they don't have a fraction as much power as theocrats in other parts of the Middle East.
Anyway, HAPPY BIRTHDAY ISRAEL!  And a big middle finger to those with a medieval mindset who want to push it into the sea. |
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GHcool
"Forever a curious character."
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Posted - 05/09/2008 : 07:05:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Se�n
quote:
Originally posted by GHcool
Furthermore, Sean's distrust of "them" (meaning all Israelis, I suppose)
Please don't play the "He doesn't like the Israeli government therefore he doesn't like Israelis so must be an anti-Semite" line with me, Guy. That's become totally stale. I thought better of you, actually. It's crystal clear from my post that I'm referring to the Israeli government. And no, I don't trust 'them'. What they did was an act of arrogance and contempt for New Zealanders.
I did not call you an anti-Semite, nor do I think of you as an anti-Semite, nor do I think your statement that you don't trust "them" is anti-Semitic. Now that I understand that "them" refers to the Israeli government, I understand and respect your opinion. The Israeli government is an "it" not a "them," so I was thrown off. Clearly, this wasn't your intent. I apologize for the misunderstanding and ask that in the future you be more careful with your pronouns. |
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Sean
"Necrosphenisciform anthropophagist."
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Posted - 05/09/2008 : 09:09:56
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In NZ a government is a 'them', not an 'it'. Both are widely used globally. A government is a collection of people so is considered a plural, i.e., a collective noun.
"Usage Note: In American usage government always takes a singular verb. In British usage government, in the sense of a governing group of officials, takes a plural verb: The government are determined to follow this course."
I see you're only familiar with the American usage, so can understand the misunderstanding. No worries. (Sorry about seeming snarky.  ) I'll try to keep that in mind when talking to Americans. Man, this makes internet discussions hardly worth the bother.  |
Edited by - Sean on 05/09/2008 09:12:19 |
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ChocolateLady 
"500 Chocolate Delights"
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Posted - 05/09/2008 : 13:40:33
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Well... thanks...
And what a way to end the celebrations - with our PM saying that he's being investigated for taking bribes, which, of course, he denies unconditionally. At least he said that if he's formally accused, he'd resign from his post.
(And it sounded so familiar: "I did not [take bribes from/have sex with] that [donor/woman]!")
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GHcool
"Forever a curious character."
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Posted - 05/09/2008 : 16:04:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Se�n
In NZ a government is a 'them', not an 'it'. Both are widely used globally. A government is a collection of people so is considered a plural, i.e., a collective noun.
"Usage Note: In American usage government always takes a singular verb. In British usage government, in the sense of a governing group of officials, takes a plural verb: The government are determined to follow this course."
I see you're only familiar with the American usage, so can understand the misunderstanding. No worries. (Sorry about seeming snarky. ) I'll try to keep that in mind when talking to Americans. Man, this makes internet discussions hardly worth the bother.
Interesting. I didn't know that "government" is a "them" in other countries. I'll have to keep this in mind as well. No harm done, Sean.
By the way, in the rest of the English speaking world, is a "flock of birds" or a "school of fish" an "it" or a "them?" |
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BaftaBaby 
"Always entranced by cinema."
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Posted - 05/09/2008 : 16:21:07
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quote:
Originally posted by GHcool
By the way, in the rest of the English speaking world, is a "flock of birds" or a "school of fish" an "it" or a "them?"
these are collective nouns which take the singular- but lots of mistakes are made 
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MguyXXVI
"X marks the spot"
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Posted - 05/09/2008 : 18:11:51
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| Happy Birthday Izzy! |
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Whippersnapper. 
"A fourword thinking guy."
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Posted - 05/09/2008 : 18:18:14
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You're such a natural conservative Baffy!
There's an increasing tendency to use plural forms with collective nouns, such that, although its usually best avoided in formal English, in conversational English its quite acceptable.
Of course context is also important. If you are stressing that fish do form a school then it is logical to use the singular form, but if you were more stressing the idea of the fish then either form would be fin e conversationally.
Thats what I thinks, anyways.
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BaftaBaby
"Always entranced by cinema."
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Posted - 05/09/2008 : 19:35:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Whippersnapper
If you are stressing that fish do form a school then it is logical to use the singular form, but if you were more stressing the idea of the fish then either form would be fin e conversationally.
Thats what I thinks, anyways.
I don't think fish should be stressed - they have enough problems these days. 
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Happy Birthday, Israel
