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BaftaBaby 
"Always entranced by cinema."
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 Posted - 05/09/2008 : 19:36:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Whippersnapper
If you are stressing that fish do form a school then it is logical to use the singular form, but if you were more stressing the idea of the fish then either form would be fin e conversationally.
Thats what I thinks, anyways.
I don't think fish should be stressed - they have enough problems these days. 
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MguyXXVI 
"X marks the spot"
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Posted - 05/10/2008 : 04:43:20
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Me thinks they's fin e too.  |
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Sal[Au]pian
"Four ever European"
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Posted - 05/10/2008 : 05:47:47
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On the single/plural thing, I had no idea that Americans couldn't follow the same usage as us. Does this also apply to a sports team, which is the thing most widely pluralised here? (I mean one which is singular like L.A. Galaxy, not of course one that is grammatically plural.) I tend to use follow the grammatical status of the noun, but in sports books that I have been editing lately, I think it's right to use plural verbs. Using the singular is sufficiently atypical that in some sentences it just sounds contrived. As others have alluded, "the government are" has a nuanced meaning of emphasising specific individuals' contributions. Even if they're not named, the audience would have to know who some of them were for this usage to be meaningful.
On Israel, yes, it's a better state than the others in the region, but that's not exactly the best endorsement. It's still way down in the international ranking. It and the Arab states are amongst those in the whole world that I can relate to least. |
Edited by - Sal[Au]pian on 05/10/2008 10:41:34 |
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GHcool 
"Forever a curious character."
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Posted - 05/11/2008 : 01:23:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Salopian
On Israel, yes, it's a better state than the others in the region, but that's not exactly the best endorsement. It's still way down in the international ranking. It and the Arab states are amongst those in the whole world that I can relate to least.
That's an awfully strange thing to say. Israel is #23 out of 177 countries on the United Nations' Human Development Index, which is perhaps the most reliable and comprehensive international ranking there is. The Corruption Perceptions Index ranks Israel at #30 out of 179. Reporters Without Borders ranks Israel at #44 out of 169. In fact, its difficult to find an international ranking in which Israel is not close to the top! |
Edited by - GHcool on 05/11/2008 05:59:22 |
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Whippersnapper. 
"A fourword thinking guy."
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Posted - 05/11/2008 : 10:43:16
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Why is it strange that someone who has absolutely no personal experience of Israel and whose ideas about it come from the British media should be prejudiced against it?
Just what I'd expect.
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ChocolateLady
"500 Chocolate Delights"
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Posted - 05/11/2008 : 11:20:12
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One of my favourite journalists here is Yair Lapid. This editorial of his, published just before our 60th Anniversary, shows you all that while we are steadfast in rebuking all criticism from outsiders, we are alsoy own greatest critics, and frankly, we aren't really as bad as we think!
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Whippersnapper.
"A fourword thinking guy."
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Posted - 05/11/2008 : 12:16:51
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I suppose this paragraph is "Israeli logic"?
If government corruption is everywhere and the law is a joke, how do you explain the fact that the son of a former prime minister is in jail, the former Labor minister was recently convicted over a bribe, and that our prime minister is constantly under investigation?
To assert that the fact that there is so much corruption uncovered is evidence of an exaggerated impression of the degree of corruption is an insult to my intelligence. And that takes some doing these days!
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GHcool
"Forever a curious character."
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Posted - 05/11/2008 : 17:38:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Whippersnapper
I suppose this paragraph is "Israeli logic"?
If government corruption is everywhere and the law is a joke, how do you explain the fact that the son of a former prime minister is in jail, the former Labor minister was recently convicted over a bribe, and that our prime minister is constantly under investigation?
To assert that the fact that there is so much corruption uncovered is evidence of an exaggerated impression of the degree of corruption is an insult to my intelligence. And that takes some doing these days!
It is worded rather strangely, but I understand what he's saying. He clearly agrees that certain people in the government of Israel are corrupt, but disagrees that "corruption is everywhere and the law is a joke." If corruption were everywhere and the law were a joke, those that are corrupt would not be few and far between and they wouldn't be under investigation. |
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Sal[Au]pian
"Four ever European"
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Posted - 05/11/2008 : 21:58:28
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quote:
Originally posted by GHcool
quote:
Originally posted by Salopian
On Israel, yes, it's a better state than the others in the region, but that's not exactly the best endorsement. It's still way down in the international ranking. It and the Arab states are amongst those in the whole world that I can relate to least.
That's an awfully strange thing to say. Israel is #23 out of 177 countries on the United Nations' Human Development Index, which is perhaps the most reliable and comprehensive international ranking there is. The Corruption Perceptions Index ranks Israel at #30 out of 179. Reporters Without Borders ranks Israel at #44 out of 169. In fact, its difficult to find an international ranking in which Israel is not close to the top!
It's just my instinctive impression, based on how much I can relate to it. This is of course formed by the media coverage, but that is not so very biased, especially as I am not saying that the Arab states are preferable. I guess amongst the factors are: degree of militarisation, proportion of the population all of one religion (which affects the culture dramatically even if the state is technically secular), national assertion, illegal settlements, kibbutzim, lack of history (of the country in recent times, rather than of the Jewish people or ancient). I don't need telling that some of these factors apply to Arab states (which I have already said are worse) or Great Britain (which I cannot help being my country).
I saw Morgan Spurlock's rathet disappointing film yesterday and by far the most deranged group were some kind of extreme Israelis. I am sure that he favoured showing mainly (though not entirely) normal Muslims as that was the point of the film, but I still find it hard to imagine living in a country with the aforementioned group. I feel the need to spell this out as so many people here like to wilfully misinterpret things: of course there are nutjobs here too, but (i) I wish there weren't and (ii) I'm more used to those here. |
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Whippersnapper.
"A fourword thinking guy."
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Posted - 05/11/2008 : 22:57:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Salopian
quote:
Originally posted by GHcool
quote:
Originally posted by Salopian
On Israel, yes, it's a better state than the others in the region, but that's not exactly the best endorsement. It's still way down in the international ranking. It and the Arab states are amongst those in the whole world that I can relate to least.
That's an awfully strange thing to say. Israel is #23 out of 177 countries on the United Nations' Human Development Index, which is perhaps the most reliable and comprehensive international ranking there is. The Corruption Perceptions Index ranks Israel at #30 out of 179. Reporters Without Borders ranks Israel at #44 out of 169. In fact, its difficult to find an international ranking in which Israel is not close to the top!
It's just my instinctive impression, based on how much I can relate to it. This is of course formed by the media coverage, but that is not so very biased, especially as I am not saying that the Arab states are preferable.
This is silly. What is "instinctive" about it? You have come across some information in the media, you have digested it, and you have reached certain vague opinions. This has nothing whatsoever to do with instinct.
And how could you possibly know if your opinion and/or the information given to you in the media are "not so very biased" as you have no personal knowledge? And why on earth does the fact that you think Israel is preferable to the Arab states (all neatly bundled together I notice) mean you are not biased against Israel? It just means you are of the opinion that, however bad Israel is, the Arab states are worse.
The truth is simply this: you have no personal knowledge of the situation at all, what information you get is largely from the media and this has left you with the impression that Israel is not a very nice country.
I am simply saying that in my experience of the media's attitude towards Israel, I would expect most people to take the attitude you do.
To GH, of course he can argue that corruption is not "everywhere" because it isn't - it's just in lots of places. And he can also argue the law is not a joke, because it isn't, but it does seem to have problems bringing many successful prosecutions (and no, the fact that one case has been successful is not proof the system works well!)
We all understand that proving political corruption is very difficult as it is almost always disguised as political donations.
However, the fact that Olmert is being investigated for the nth time for corruption does not prove the system is working well. Firstly, isn't it a little odd that a prime minister has been accused of corruption on so many occasions, without the enquiry being able to bring charges? These are not indications of healthy political integrity. At best they indicate a tendency to sail close to the wind on funding, where suspicions frequently arise, even if ultimately unfounded, and at worst they suggest corrupt politicians who, when necessary, pay off corrupt police or other corrupt politicians.
No. The point it that the dis-ease felt about Israeli politicians is probably well-founded, and certainly the journalist's argument that this is exaggerated is not supported by any evidence he offers. His reasoning is clearly confused and an attempt to throw in the question of political corruption with the many problems which Israelis really do exaggerate.
A friend of mine who was brought up in Israel told me that people were always complaining they were hard up and so on, and suddenly a new Mercedes would appear in their driveway. "I thought things weren't going so well for you?" "Well, I needed a car, what can you do?" 
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Sal[Au]pian
"Four ever European"
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Posted - 05/12/2008 : 01:14:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Whippersnapper
What is "instinctive" about it? You have come across some information in the media, you have digested it, and you have reached certain vague opinions. This has nothing whatsoever to do with instinct.
I don't want to get into one of the petty little arguments that you are so fond of, so I intend to answer this post and then no further ones from you in this thread. It is the processing of the information I have about Israel that it is instinctive, i.e. I have not attempted to add up various factors in a scientific way. Further, many of the things I mentioned are personal preferences (e.g. not liking religion) and they are of course instinctive. Assuming that I have not imagined the existence of these things, that is fine. It's also fine to have vague opinions on some things - there is far too much in the world for any other outcome.
quote:
And how could you possibly know if your opinion and/or the information given to you in the media are "not so very biased" as you have no personal knowledge?
Um, because I haven't just popped out of a capsule. Like any normal person, I am able to assess the media to a certain degree, based on experience of its coverage and by comparing different sources. Many positive aspects of Israel are well known, as are hardships it has suffered. It's hard to imagine what you think has been missing, especially as we are not discussing the Palestinians being in the right, which is the key area where bias is claimed. I don't know what your definition of "no personal knowledge" is, but I know plenty of people who have been there, including for several years in some cases.
quote:
And why on earth does the fact that you think Israel is preferable to the Arab states (all neatly bundled together I notice) mean you are not biased against Israel? It just means you are of the opinion that, however bad Israel is, the Arab states are worse.
It's just (obviously) an example of states that I do disfavour compared to Israel. And since no one claims that Israel is misrepresented relative to distant states, those are the only ones against which a 'bias' (as opposed to just a preference) would have been likely to have occurred.
quote:
the impression that Israel is not a very nice country.
Please don't assert my vagueness and then misrepresent my view as absurdly vaguer. I listed many specific things which make Israel a country I feel little in common with. |
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GHcool
"Forever a curious character."
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Posted - 05/12/2008 : 01:57:27
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I don't want to get into an argument with you, Salopian, but you have to admit that your claim that Israel is "way down in the international ranking" is demonstrably false and that most of your criticisms of Israel apply equally to England, especially in the few times when England has faced threats from terrorism. Luckily for England, terrorist threats aren't the norm, so the level of military spending is not quite as high a priority as it is in Israel, where terrorist threats are the norm.
As for religious fundamentalism, the people you are referring to are in the minority. They generally live together in smallish neighborhoods. Many of them don't even vote or serve in the army.
The criticism that the "proportion of the population [are] all of one religion" is odd coming from a someone who lives in England, where 72% of the population is Christian. In Israel, 76% of the population is Jewish. Is 4% more so much?
In every meaningful sense, Israeli society is extremely similar to a Western European society, except that the majority aren't Christian and terrorism is a daily threat. |
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Whippersnapper.
"A fourword thinking guy."
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Posted - 05/12/2008 : 02:06:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Salopian
quote:
Originally posted by Whippersnapper
What is "instinctive" about it? You have come across some information in the media, you have digested it, and you have reached certain vague opinions. This has nothing whatsoever to do with instinct.
I don't want to get into one of the petty little arguments that you are so fond of, so I intend to answer this post and then no further ones from you in this thread. It is the processing of the information I have about Israel that it is instinctive, i.e. I have not attempted to add up various factors in a scientific way. Further, many of the things I mentioned are personal preferences (e.g. not liking religion) and they are of course instinctive. Assuming that I have not imagined the existence of these things, that is fine. It's also fine to have vague opinions on some things - there is far too much in the world for any other outcome.
quote:
And how could you possibly know if your opinion and/or the information given to you in the media are "not so very biased" as you have no personal knowledge?
Um, because I haven't just popped out of a capsule. Like any normal person, I am able to assess the media to a certain degree, based on experience of its coverage and by comparing different sources. Many positive aspects of Israel are well known, as are hardships it has suffered. It's hard to imagine what you think has been missing, especially as we are not discussing the Palestinians being in the right, which is the key area where bias is claimed. I don't know what your definition of "no personal knowledge" is, but I know plenty of people who have been there, including for several years in some cases.
quote:
And why on earth does the fact that you think Israel is preferable to the Arab states (all neatly bundled together I notice) mean you are not biased against Israel? It just means you are of the opinion that, however bad Israel is, the Arab states are worse.
It's just (obviously) an example of states that I do disfavour compared to Israel. And since no one claims that Israel is misrepresented relative to distant states, those are the only ones against which a 'bias' (as opposed to just a preference) would have been likely to have occurred.
quote:
the impression that Israel is not a very nice country.
Please don't assert my vagueness and then misrepresent my view as absurdly vaguer. I listed many specific things which makes Israel a country I feel little in common with.
Firstly, whether you reply to this post or not is your business - respond or not as you choose. And I loved the bit about the petty little arguments I am so fond of - that was your self-ironic humour, wasn't it? Hilarious.
Now, your idea that "instinctive" thought is any thought which is not scientific is just not what dictionaries say. Please look it up. Your definition would make almost all thought "instinctive".
I agree your ideas are not scientifically thought through and that's why I called them vague. I'm sure most people's ideas about Israel are vague and I agree with you when you say there is too much in the world to be anything other than vague on most subjects.
By personal knowledge I mean knowledge gained by personal experience, not through a third party. Knowing someone who was in Israel doesn't count as personal knowledge of Israel. Sorry.
You find it hard to imagine what is missing from the picture you have - well, you would, wouldn't you? But leaving aside what is missing, the problem with the UK media reports, as I see it, is rather it's bias and emphasis on conflict. It certainly affects the way Israel is perceived by people like yourself.
Your claim that a bias would affect how you perceive Israel relative to Arab states but not affect your perception relative to other states is hard to understand as you specifically stated of Israel "It's still way down in the international ranking". If Israel is shown in a poor light then that will lower its ISR - International Salopian Ranking. As GH points out, Israel doesn't do so badly on the real international rankings, which are not so influenced by the UK media.
Finally, far from my suggesting that your opinion on Israel was "absurd" in any way I said that your opinion was what I would expect from someone who got most of their information from the UK media, and I think your remark about being way down the international ranking equates, in summary, with you believing its not a very nice country. Isn't that where not very nice countries are in the ISR index? Sure they are.
Essentially, all I said was that your view of Israel is pretty much what I would expect someone whose main source of information on the subject was the UK media.
I look forward to not receiving your response at your earliest opportunity.
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Sal[Au]pian
"Four ever European"
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Posted - 05/12/2008 : 02:16:26
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quote:
Originally posted by GHcool
I don't want to get into an argument with you, Salopian, but you have to admit that your claim that Israel is "way down in the international ranking" is demonstrably false and that most of your criticisms of Israel apply equally to England, especially in the few times when England has faced threats from terrorism. Luckily for England, terrorist threats aren't the norm, so the level of military spending is not quite as high a priority as it is in Israel, where terrorist threats are the norm.
As for religious fundamentalism, the people you are referring to are in the minority. They generally live together in smallish neighborhoods. Many of them don't even vote or serve in the army.
The criticism that the "proportion of the population [are] all of one religion" is odd coming from a someone who lives in England, where 72% of the population is Christian. In Israel, 76% of the population is Jewish. Is 4% more so much?
In every meaningful sense, Israeli society is extremely similar to a Western European society, except that the majority aren't Christian and terrorism is a daily threat.
Yes, that sentence was rather stark. I meant the international ranking of my own preferences, which is still the case.
I'd already said that many of the problems could also be ascribed to my country, but that there is not much I can do about that and I'm more used to the variants here. Further, you are not setting yourself up as an international expert by talking about England. Even if you didn't want to refer to Great Britain as the country I identify with, you should have referred to the United Kingdom.
I'm well aware that the religious extremists are not the majority - but I wouldn't want to live in a country with them.
For the U.K., these religious percentages vary wildly by source. There is no way that that proportion is Christian in any meaningful sense. I'd be really surprised if that many were even Christened. I appreciate that many people are only culturally Jewish, but I really don't think that the levels are equivalent. No one I know would eat particularly Christian things on special days, for example, unless one counts pancakes and even that is rare now. Basically, in my life I don't have to have anything to with Christianity or any other religion. I seriously doubt that that would be the case in Israel.
Since you are neither Western European nor Israeli, I don't really want to be told by you that they are similar. Besides, being similar to Western Europe is not necessarily an overriding factor for me. |
Edited by - Sal[Au]pian on 05/12/2008 02:23:36 |
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Sal[Au]pian
"Four ever European"
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Posted - 05/12/2008 : 02:21:12
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| I haven't read napper's latest little tirade, by the way, and am not going to, so feel free to rant and rave as much as you want, telling me that I have to like certain places on parameters of your own choosing. |
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Happy Birthday, Israel
