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GHcool 
"Forever a curious character."
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 Posted - 05/12/2008 : 06:01:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Salopian
quote:
Originally posted by GHcool
I don't want to get into an argument with you, Salopian, but you have to admit that your claim that Israel is "way down in the international ranking" is demonstrably false and that most of your criticisms of Israel apply equally to England, especially in the few times when England has faced threats from terrorism. Luckily for England, terrorist threats aren't the norm, so the level of military spending is not quite as high a priority as it is in Israel, where terrorist threats are the norm.
As for religious fundamentalism, the people you are referring to are in the minority. They generally live together in smallish neighborhoods. Many of them don't even vote or serve in the army.
The criticism that the "proportion of the population [are] all of one religion" is odd coming from a someone who lives in England, where 72% of the population is Christian. In Israel, 76% of the population is Jewish. Is 4% more so much?
In every meaningful sense, Israeli society is extremely similar to a Western European society, except that the majority aren't Christian and terrorism is a daily threat.
Yes, that sentence was rather stark. I meant the international ranking of my own preferences, which is still the case.
I'd already said that many of the problems could also be ascribed to my country, but that there is not much I can do about that and I'm more used to the variants here. Further, you are not setting yourself up as an international expert by talking about England. Even if you didn't want to refer to Great Britain as the country I identify with, you should have referred to the United Kingdom.
I'm well aware that the religious extremists are not the majority - but I wouldn't want to live in a country with them.
For the U.K., these religious percentages vary wildly by source. There is no way that that proportion is Christian in any meaningful sense. I'd be really surprised if that many were even Christened. I appreciate that many people are only culturally Jewish, but I really don't think that the levels are equivalent. No one I know would eat particularly Christian things on special days, for example, unless one counts pancakes and even that is rare now. Basically, in my life I don't have to have anything to with Christianity or any other religion. I seriously doubt that that would be the case in Israel.
Since you are neither Western European nor Israeli, I don't really want to be told by you that they are similar. Besides, being similar to Western Europe is not necessarily an overriding factor for me.
Firstly, atheists live as comfortably in Israel as they do in the United Kingdom (thanks for the correction). Secondly, I've been to Israel and the U.K. several times and so I believe I have a fairly good idea of both societies. Therefore, I have an informed opinion on the two countries' similarities. Salopian's opinion on Israel, unfortunately, isn't as informed. Furthermore, in light of the fact that the international ranking of Salopian's own preferences are at odds with almost every other international ranking in the world, it seems to me that Salopian holds a fringe opinion.
Salopian, you're welcome to your opinions, even if you hold fringe opinions, but I ask for your own sake to at least make informed opinions. I'm not telling you to go to Israel or anything; I'm just asking that you not put down a society which you know hardly anything about and then get offended when someone corrects an uninformed error you've made. |
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ChocolateLady 
"500 Chocolate Delights"
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Posted - 05/12/2008 : 07:16:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Salopian
For the U.K., these religious percentages vary wildly by source. There is no way that that proportion is Christian in any meaningful sense. I'd be really surprised if that many were even Christened. I appreciate that many people are only culturally Jewish, but I really don't think that the levels are equivalent. No one I know would eat particularly Christian things on special days, for example, unless one counts pancakes and even that is rare now. Basically, in my life I don't have to have anything to with Christianity or any other religion. I seriously doubt that that would be the case in Israel.
While Wikipedia gives these figures, I don't think they're totally accurate. The latest information says that the Ultra Orthodox are still more like 8% than 10%, but the "religious" are probably more like 15%. Even so, according to Wiki, 33% of the UK are apparently actively religious to one extent or another, and Israel has 34%.
Big difference there, eh? Especially considering you've got 60million people and we have only 6million, we're obviously hugely more religious than you are!
As for eating special things on certain days, apparently I've been enormously duped by British TV and movies. I didn't realize that in reality no one in all of England ever eat big Xmas dinners or Easter whatever meals, or that on Sundays nobody has large meals with their families. Using that as a basis for judgement, then I guess Israel really is a completely and totally orthodox Jewish country because most people participate in a Passover Seder, eat a jelly doughnut or potato pancake on Hanukkah and enjoy Friday night dinners with their family. Whoda thunk?
(Insert appropriate sarcastic smilie here.)
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Sean
"Necrosphenisciform anthropophagist."
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Posted - 05/12/2008 : 09:46:44
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This thread has been funny for the last page or two. 
I'm a religion-hating atheist but happily eat christmas dinner at Xmas.  And hot-cross buns at easter. And chocolate at easter although I eat chocolate daily. 
I've always been totally suspicious of any kind of 'religion' statistics. The answer you get will depend totally on the way the question is asked. |
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Whippersnapper. 
"A fourword thinking guy."
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Posted - 05/12/2008 : 10:38:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Salopian
I haven't read napper's latest little tirade, by the way, and am not going to, so feel free to rant and rave as much as you want, telling me that I have to like certain places on parameters of your own choosing.
Salopian,
I demand that you do not read or reply to this post.
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ChocolateLady
"500 Chocolate Delights"
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Posted - 05/12/2008 : 11:33:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Se�n
This thread has been funny for the last page or two.
So glad you enjoyed it!
quote:
Originally posted by Se�nI'm a religion-hating atheist but happily eat christmas dinner at Xmas. And hot-cross buns at easter. And chocolate at easter although I eat chocolate daily.
Bravo!
quote:
Originally posted by Se�nI've always been totally suspicious of any kind of 'religion' statistics. The answer you get will depend totally on the way the question is asked.
And there you have it. Thank you, and good night!
(I hereby invoke Goodwin's Rule to end this thread by saying it all boils down to something just like "the Nazis and Hitler"!)
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Edited by - ChocolateLady on 05/12/2008 11:38:26 |
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Downtown 
"Welcome back, Billy Buck"
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Posted - 05/12/2008 : 16:01:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Se�n
quote:
Originally posted by Downtown
But I was really just reminding everyone of why it's so important to stand by Israel as an ally, it being the only country in that part of the world that the West can really trust, something every country but the United States refuses to admit even though they all know it.
I'm not sure what you mean by 'trust'. You mean honesty? A couple of Mossad agents came to NZ about 4 years ago to fraudulently secure NZ passports, i.e., so they could 'do their work' overseas while pretending to be New Zealanders. What was even more disgraceful than this disgusting act was the fact it took the Israeli government a year to apologise. So why would I trust them? I don't.
Because despite all the criticism they get over totally unimportant incidents like this which are selectively reported in the media, countries like yours can still rely on Israel to do your dirty work for you, like destroying nuclear weapons programs of rogue regimes (the real weapons programs, not the fake ones made up by the Bush Administration) even when they already know that they'll be criticized for it by the very same governments that secretly are breathing a huge sigh of relief. |
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Sean
"Necrosphenisciform anthropophagist."
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Posted - 05/12/2008 : 23:40:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Downtown
quote:
Originally posted by Se�n
quote:
Originally posted by Downtown
But I was really just reminding everyone of why it's so important to stand by Israel as an ally, it being the only country in that part of the world that the West can really trust, something every country but the United States refuses to admit even though they all know it.
I'm not sure what you mean by 'trust'. You mean honesty? A couple of Mossad agents came to NZ about 4 years ago to fraudulently secure NZ passports, i.e., so they could 'do their work' overseas while pretending to be New Zealanders. What was even more disgraceful than this disgusting act was the fact it took the Israeli government a year to apologise. So why would I trust them? I don't.
Because despite all the criticism they get over totally unimportant incidents
I don't regard it as "totally unimportant". Friendly countries don't do such things to their 'friends', and with that incident the Israeli government made it clear that they don't care what the New Zealand government or New Zealanders think of them.quote:
like this which are selectively reported in the media, countries like yours can still rely on Israel to do your dirty work for you, like destroying nuclear weapons programs of rogue regimes (the real weapons programs, not the fake ones made up by the Bush Administration) even when they already know that they'll be criticized for it by the very same governments that secretly are breathing a huge sigh of relief.
I admit I am curious as to how 'the world' would react if there was another Osirak incident. Preventing those with a medieval mindset from possessing nuclear weapons gets my full support.
Most of the criticism Israel receives for flexing it's military muscle comes from it's very high tolerance for 'collateral damage'; e.g., using a missile to destroy a building and kill all men, women and children in the building because there may be a 'wanted man' in the building. And for 'punishing' the civilians of south Lebanon for allowing Hezbollah to exist in their midst etc. |
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Downtown
"Welcome back, Billy Buck"
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Posted - 05/13/2008 : 00:09:16
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| I'll tell you what, Sean: when New Zealand and the rest of the world show some interest in preventing Iran and Syria from building an army of mercenaries in southern Lebanon intent on raining death down on the innocent families living in northern Israel, New Zealand and the rest of the world will have some say in how Israel defends itself from said army. The list of countries that were volunteering to send "peacekeeping" UN troops to the region in summer 2006 was downright pathetic, and hardly represented the list of countries that criticized the IDF for how they responded to that unprovoked attack. You could at least pay lip service to what an outrage it is that the Syrians and Iranians are using Lebanese soil for their proxy war while you're criticizing the Israelis for defending themselves in a way you consider inappropriate. |
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Whippersnapper.
"A fourword thinking guy."
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Posted - 05/13/2008 : 00:21:39
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Your remarks about Israel tolerance to collateral damage are ill-informed. Israel takes a lot of trouble to minimise collateral damage - it's bad publicity for a start.
Several supposed examples of Israeli attacks killing Palestinian women and children are probably false. A very recent case where a woman and four children were killed and attributed to an Israeli attack - and widely publicised as such - has now been explained as Palestinian munitions exploding. Another famous case was where it was claimed an Israeli tank fired at children playing on a Gaza beach. In fact the most likely explanation of that was that the children probably found and started playing with unexploded munitions on the beach and that set off the explosion. The thing about these cases is that the initial event is always in big headlines with a Palestinian claim and only after investigation does the story become unlikely, but that's not news any more.
On the other hand, given that Hamas and their ilk deliberately hide themselves amongst civilian populations, it is inevitable that, if Israel wants to stop rocket attacks on its citizens, then a certain amount of collateral damage to Palestinian civilians is inevitable. In such a situation things sometimes go wrong and people sometimes go too far too in combat situations. No army in the world is good at charging its own soldiers with crimes against others and Israel isn't any different.
On the matter of Mossad in NZ, from my perspective the matter was incredibly trivial and the importance given to it shows 1. how little of real political importance happens in NZ and 2. how badly the prissy NZ govt handled a relatively small matter which would have been sorted out without much publicity in most other countries. It's probable that all major powers are spying on each other all the time, including and perhaps particularly allies, but alliances are not broken by it. Your remark that friends do not do such things to their friends is really way off the mark when you are talking about friendly states. In any case, Israel was not motivated to hurt NZ interests, merely to obtain some false identities to use for covert purposes.
When Downtown said Israel was to be trusted, I took him to mean that the system of government in Israel ie a liberal democracy, was very solidly established and very unlikely to change, whereas in most Arab countries there is a regime which could be overturned at any time in the future with very unclear consequences. Even if the regime doesn't fall, it may have to change its position to placate its (largely anti-Western) population. Egypt, Jordan, The Lebanon and Saudi Arabia all more or less fall into this category.
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Sean
"Necrosphenisciform anthropophagist."
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Posted - 05/13/2008 : 01:44:19
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I don't bother paying lip service to the outrage of Iran/Syria's arming of Hezbollah for the same reason I don't bother saying "suicide bombers blowing up civilians are bad". I think most (hopefully all?) reading this thread are aware that those who want an Islamic caliphate in the Middle East with public beheadings of apostates etc are the B-grade citizens of our planet.
Rather than regarding the tit-for-tat response to rocket attacks as 'wrong' or 'bad', I mostly find it depressing. Each response is likely to create more 'terrorists' (call them what you want). It makes it inevitable that low-tenor conflict on Israel's borders will continue for ever, and ever, and ever. Eye-for-an-eye violence is the resort of those who are not aware of any solution to conflict, and this may be because there is no solution. 
quote:
Originally posted by Whippersnapper
On the matter of Mossad in NZ, from my perspective the matter was incredibly trivial and the importance given to it shows 1. how little of real political importance happens in NZ
You are correct. I like it this way. NZ's irrelevance is exactly what makes our passports desirable to criminals and intelligence agencies. Some years ago my passport did a 'disappearing act' in the hands of the Guinean immigration department in Conakry, Guinea for what I'm guessing was this reason.quote:
and 2. how badly the prissy NZ govt handled a relatively small matter which would have been sorted out without much publicity in most other countries.
It was treated as a criminal issue in the absence of any representation by the Israeli government and their refusal to become involved. I'm guessing this could have been 'swept under the carpet' if the Israeli government had wanted that. They obviously didn't place much value on their relationship with the NZ government, and the feeling was obviously mutual.quote:
When Downtown said Israel was to be trusted, I took him to mean that the system of government in Israel ie a liberal democracy, was very solidly established and very unlikely to change, whereas in most Arab countries there is a regime which could be overturned at any time in the future with very unclear consequences. Even if the regime doesn't fall, it may have to change its position to placate its (largely anti-Western) population. Egypt, Jordan, The Lebanon and Saudi Arabia all more or less fall into this category.
If that's what he meant, then I agree. |
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Downtown
"Welcome back, Billy Buck"
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Posted - 05/13/2008 : 20:29:07
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quote:
I don't bother paying lip service to the outrage of Iran/Syria's arming of Hezbollah for the same reason I don't bother saying "suicide bombers blowing up civilians are bad". I think most (hopefully all?) reading this thread are aware that those who want an Islamic caliphate in the Middle East with public beheadings of apostates etc are the B-grade citizens of our planet.
Perhaps the next time you get defensive at the implication that your criticism of Israel might be motivated by antisemitism (which just as a reminder wasn't from me), you should consider that there might be a correlation between those accusations and your habit of arbitrarily singling out Israel for criticism of how they fight a war they haven't started. All I see is endless criticism of Israel without even an acknowledgment of the constant state of siege it's under, until someone wrestles it out of you. It's this perpetual selective amnesia from the global community - led by Europe - that leads many to believe anti-Zionism is usually motivated by antisemitism, even though the two are hardly synonymous. It's almost as if every time Israel is attacked, it was the first time.
If you really support Israel's right to defend itself, then prove it by standing up for that right at least as often as you question how they exercise it. |
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Downtown
"Welcome back, Billy Buck"
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Posted - 05/13/2008 : 20:34:00
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quote:
When Downtown said Israel was to be trusted, I took him to mean that the system of government in Israel ie a liberal democracy, was very solidly established and very unlikely to change, whereas in most Arab countries there is a regime which could be overturned at any time in the future with very unclear consequences. Even if the regime doesn't fall, it may have to change its position to placate its (largely anti-Western) population. Egypt, Jordan, The Lebanon and Saudi Arabia all more or less fall into this category.
The Saud family control their kingdom with an iron fist, and their hold on the country is a thousand times stronger than the Shah's was...they're not going anywhere, their government is quite stable and I expect it to continue to be. I still don't trust them...I'm thinking the fact that the Saudi government supports the seminaries that educated 19 pilots to came to the United States might have something to do with it... |
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Sean
"Necrosphenisciform anthropophagist."
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Posted - 05/13/2008 : 23:43:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Downtown
Perhaps the next time you get defensive at the implication that your criticism of Israel might be motivated by antisemitism (which just as a reminder wasn't from me), you should consider that there might be a correlation between those accusations and your habit of arbitrarily singling out Israel for criticism of how they fight a war they haven't started.
Well it works both ways. It is virtually impossible to question any use of power by Israel's military without being accused of antisemitism. Israeli governments have made a habit of playing the "Holocaust guilt" card as justifcation for anything they do. (That approach is not uncommon; Bush et al were using the "We're 9/11 victims so that's why we can do this" approach for as long as they could get away with it).
So yeah, when I criticised the Israeli government over the fraudulent passport fiasco, and it was immediately bounced back at me as a criticism of EVERYONE IN ISRAEL, then naturally I became defensive and felt slightly sickened. If criticising everyone in Israel isn't antisemitism then I'd like to know what it is.
And for the record I totally fail to understand antisemitism. I understand (but obviously am disgusted by) anti-black or anti-Asian sentiment, at least they look different and I could understand how a one-eyed redneck could harbour such sentiments. But antisemitism? I don't get it at all.
And I suppose there's no harm in me re-mentioning that Orphaned Land are in my favourite-bands-ever list, and yep, they're Israeli. (And anyone who even suspects they may like folk/rock/metal who hasn't heard "Mabool" is missing out in a massive way).
quote:
If you really support Israel's right to defend itself, then prove it by standing up for that right at least as often as you question how they exercise it.
You'll note that I haven't mentioned "right to defense". I don't believe the human species had any right to produce 6.5 billion members, but what's the point in talking about that? I mention "cause and effect" or "action and consequence" which is the way I look at Israel's relationship with it's neighbours, in the same way I look at the US/UK presence in Iraq. Deontology is a failed basis for global politics. How many wars over the centuries have been fought because they're RIGHT, rather than because the end result was going to be beneficial? Perhaps it's time our species grew out of one-dimensional "eye-for-an-eye" politics and seriously considered consequentialism. The Northern Ireland conflict came to an end because most of the interested parties did precisely this, and the deontologists (Paisley et. al.) were forced (eventually) to follow suit. |
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GHcool
"Forever a curious character."
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Posted - 05/14/2008 : 00:09:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Se�n
quote:
Originally posted by Downtown
Perhaps the next time you get defensive at the implication that your criticism of Israel might be motivated by antisemitism (which just as a reminder wasn't from me), you should consider that there might be a correlation between those accusations and your habit of arbitrarily singling out Israel for criticism of how they fight a war they haven't started.
Well it works both ways. It is virtually impossible to question any use of power by Israel's military without being accused of antisemitism. Israeli governments have made a habit of playing the "Holocaust guilt" card as justifcation for anything they do. (That approach is not uncommon; Bush et al were using the "We're 9/11 victims so that's why we can do this" approach for as long as they could get away with it).
So yeah, when I criticised the Israeli government over the fraudulent passport fiasco, and it was immediately bounced back at me as a criticism of EVERYONE IN ISRAEL, then naturally I became defensive and felt slightly sickened. If criticising everyone in Israel isn't antisemitism then I'd like to know what it is.
Sean is wrong on both counts: (1) Israel never "plays the Holocaust guilt card" when it receives mere criticism and (2) nobody ever accused Sean of being anti-Semitic.
Point 1 deserves further discussion. A lot of criticism of Israel is completely legitimate. In fact, the Israeli media is full of criticism of Israel every single day of the week. The line between legitimate criticism and overt anti-Semitism is crossed when people distribute deliberate disinformation (such as Hezbollah's false claim that Israel disseminates AIDS to Muslim world), when people make outlandish comparisons between Israel and the worst regimes in world history (Nazi Germany and apartheid South Africa are the most popular comparisons), when people selectively focus on Israel as being among "the worst" countries in the world, wishing for Israel's destruction, and a other forms of intellectual dishonesty and ignorance in the form of racism.
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Sean
"Necrosphenisciform anthropophagist."
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Posted - 05/14/2008 : 00:48:37
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quote:
Originally posted by GHcool
Sean is wrong on both counts: (1) Israel never "plays the Holocaust guilt card" when it receives mere criticism and (2) nobody ever accused Sean of being anti-Semitic.
Perhaps I'm displaying my ignorance of what exactly 'antisemitism' is. I assumed 'criticism of everyone in Israel' and 'antisemitism' are almost the same thing (although antisemitism would also include discrimination against Jews not living in Israel).quote:
Point 1 deserves further discussion. A lot of criticism of Israel is completely legitimate. In fact, the Israeli media is full of criticism of Israel every single day of the week. The line between legitimate criticism and overt anti-Semitism is crossed when people distribute deliberate disinformation (such as Hezbollah's false claim that Israel disseminates AIDS to Muslim world), when people make outlandish comparisons between Israel and the worst regimes in world history (Nazi Germany and apartheid South Africa are the most popular comparisons), when people selectively focus on Israel as being among "the worst" countries in the world, wishing for Israel's destruction, and a other forms of intellectual dishonesty and ignorance in the form of racism.
I've never heard any of those, although no garbage spread by the likes of Hezbollah surprises me. Those claims are quite ludicrous and should be regarded with absolute contempt. I'd expect many in the Middle East to believe them though. |
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Happy Birthday, Israel
