| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Whippersnapper. |
Posted - 04/14/2009 : 09:53:37
I'm just hoping she doesn't offend him by getting a Jewish divorce lawyer... |
| 15 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Sean |
Posted - 04/18/2009 : 22:59:21
quote:
Originally posted by GHcool
Ah. I took "Jews started all wars" completely literally, as in all wars in all of history, not just wars occurring after the advent of Zionism. If your interpretation is correct, then Mel is yet another example of how disingenuous the "I'm not an anti-Semite, I'm an anti-Zionist" crowd is. The rule of thumb for such matters is when someone says they are against "Zionism," it means they are against Jews. Somebody with a serious criticism of Israel will point to specific policies or politicians they disagree with. I have never heard an argument against the Zionism (i.e. the very existence of the State of Israel) that had tolerance and respect for Jews as human beings worthy of being judged by the same standards by which other human beings are judge.
Probably in most cases I agree; anti-Zionism and anti-Semitism may be inseperable. But, in conspiracist circles it's not uncommon to portray Zionists as the enemy of the Jewish people. E.g., here's a quote from David Icke's book "...And the Truth Shall Set You Free":-
I strongly believe that a small Jewish clique which has contempt for the mass of Jewish people worked with non-Jews to create the First World War, the Russian Revolution, and the Second World War. This Jewish/non-Jewish Elite used the First World War to secure the Balfour Declaration and the principle of the Jewish State of Israel. They then dominated the Versailles Peace Conference and created the circumstances which made the Second World War inevitable. They financed Hitler to power in 1933 and made the funds available for his rearmament.
I'm not sure what Gibson actually believes; he's quite good at keeping his mouth shut other than when in a depressed/angry/drunken state, but in the mind of a paranoid conspiracist - who sees powerful malevolent forces behind every newspaper headline - perhaps anything is possible. |
| GHcool |
Posted - 04/18/2009 : 17:40:25
quote:
Originally posted by Se�n
quote:
Originally posted by GHcool
One thing I will say is that the perception that Gibson is anti-Semitic stems from three things:
1. His drunken statements when he claim that "Jews cause all wars" or something like that.
2. His portrayal of Jews in The Passion of the Christ which ignores 2,000 years of persecution in due in large part to Passion plays in which Jesus's "blood is upon us and our children."
3. His refusal to condemn his father's Holocaust denial.
Arguably, the charge of Jewish guilt for the death of Jesus is a cliche, or at least a tradition that has been handed down for generations.
...and a quite irrational cliche, as without the blood sacrifice the path to salvation would presumably not exist. If one is to believe the account of Jesus's life and death (I don't) and find "the Jews" responsible for his execution, then Christians should be grateful to "the Jews" for helping enable the path to salvation.quote:
The other two are completely new phenomena and as far as I know, the claim that Jews cause all wars is something Mel made up all by himself.
There's a history of this position. I don't recall who said what or when, but I've definitely heard in conspiracist circles that 'Zionists' started various wars for their own benefit. Sometimes those Zionists were Satanic alien reptiles etc etc; standard conspiracist stuff. 
Ah. I took "Jews started all wars" completely literally, as in all wars in all of history, not just wars occurring after the advent of Zionism. If your interpretation is correct, then Mel is yet another example of how disingenuous the "I'm not an anti-Semite, I'm an anti-Zionist" crowd is. The rule of thumb for such matters is when someone says they are against "Zionism," it means they are against Jews. Somebody with a serious criticism of Israel will point to specific policies or politicians they disagree with. I have never heard an argument against the Zionism (i.e. the very existence of the State of Israel) that had tolerance and respect for Jews as human beings worthy of being judged by the same standards by which other human beings are judge. |
| MguyXXVI |
Posted - 04/18/2009 : 04:05:43
Just a note:
The press sensationalizes everything. The first article, in which the writer noted that Gibson contested the support request, makes it seem like he's taking a stand and declaring that there's no way over his dead body that his wife will get a dime from him!
Not so: the divorce form that all dissolutions are filed with has a little box on it where a party can indicate his/her preference with regard to spousal support. Like EVERYONE, Mel's attorneys checked the box saying, specifically "terminate the court's authority to award spousal support." Checking that box is damned near automatic for EVERYONE, so it's really not newsworthy at all.
Next up, today i read that Mel "asked to have the judge replaced and got his request granted!" This, too, is nothing special: EVERYONE in California has the right to ask for a new judge within the first few days of either filing the case or appearing in the case, FOR ANY REASON OR NO REASON AT ALL, and the request is granted AUTOMATICALLY. Again, there is a form that contains the necessary language (which has to state that the party believes the judge to be prejudiced -- but in practice, nobody has to really have any belief in prejudice at all), and all you have to do is sign it and file it.
Jeez: law sounds so much more exciting in tabloid-like press.  |
| Sean |
Posted - 04/18/2009 : 02:07:57
quote:
Originally posted by GHcool
One thing I will say is that the perception that Gibson is anti-Semitic stems from three things:
1. His drunken statements when he claim that "Jews cause all wars" or something like that.
2. His portrayal of Jews in The Passion of the Christ which ignores 2,000 years of persecution in due in large part to Passion plays in which Jesus's "blood is upon us and our children."
3. His refusal to condemn his father's Holocaust denial.
Arguably, the charge of Jewish guilt for the death of Jesus is a cliche, or at least a tradition that has been handed down for generations.
...and a quite irrational cliche, as without the blood sacrifice the path to salvation would presumably not exist. If one is to believe the account of Jesus's life and death (I don't) and find "the Jews" responsible for his execution, then Christians should be grateful to "the Jews" for helping enable the path to salvation.quote:
The other two are completely new phenomena and as far as I know, the claim that Jews cause all wars is something Mel made up all by himself.
There's a history of this position. I don't recall who said what or when, but I've definitely heard in conspiracist circles that 'Zionists' started various wars for their own benefit. Sometimes those Zionists were Satanic alien reptiles etc etc; standard conspiracist stuff. |
| GHcool |
Posted - 04/17/2009 : 16:25:13
quote:
Originally posted by Salopian
His anti-Semitic comment is in some ways more extreme but (i) one is on very dodgy ground when one tries to say that one instance of prejudice is worse than another, (ii) things that people are caught saying cannot be assumed the worst that they think, (iii) he was much drunker and thus more honest in the anti-Semitic case and (iv) both viewpoints he has expressed rely heavily on cliches and thus cannot be treated as relative judgments.
Yes, I don't want to debate which form of bigotry is worse. One thing I will say is that the perception that Gibson is anti-Semitic stems from three things:
1. His drunken statements when he claim that "Jews cause all wars" or something like that.
2. His portrayal of Jews in The Passion of the Christ which ignores 2,000 years of persecution in due in large part to Passion plays in which Jesus's "blood is upon us and our children."
3. His refusal to condemn his father's Holocaust denial.
Arguably, the charge of Jewish guilt for the death of Jesus is a cliche, or at least a tradition that has been handed down for generations. The other two are completely new phenomena and as far as I know, the claim that Jews cause all wars is something Mel made up all by himself. |
| Sean |
Posted - 04/17/2009 : 02:00:47
quote:
Originally posted by Salopian
What a bizarre thing to say, Sean. I don't think the crux of people's objections to him is the risk of his opinions causing murder. If they were, the context of the modern day would have to be taken into account, when I am virtually certain that more people are murdered for being gay than for being Jewish. And I don't think too many people get away with murdering people using the 'Jewish panic' defence.
That's not what I meant. I mean that when people hear anti-Semitic comments they're reminded of Auschwitz, but when heterosexuals hear homophobic comments they're reminded of homophobia, not genocide. |
| Sal[Au]pian |
Posted - 04/17/2009 : 01:51:53
I've just checked and it's on Wikipedia.
His anti-Semitic comment is in some ways more extreme but (i) one is on very dodgy ground when one tries to say that one instance of prejudice is worse than another, (ii) things that people are caught saying cannot be assumed the worst that they think, (iii) he was much drunker and thus more honest in the anti-Semitic case and (iv) both viewpoints he has expressed rely heavily on cliches and thus cannot be treated as relative judgments. |
| Sal[Au]pian |
Posted - 04/17/2009 : 01:36:26
I've seen it mentioned several times. He has definitely been publicly quoted, just not in a drunken-arrest context.
What a bizarre thing to say, Sean. I don't think the crux of people's objections to him is the risk of his opinions causing murder. If they were, the context of the modern day would have to be taken into account, when I am virtually certain that more people are murdered for being gay than for being Jewish. And I don't think too many people get away with murdering people using the 'Jewish panic' defence. |
| Sean |
Posted - 04/17/2009 : 00:16:23
quote:
Originally posted by Salopian
It's interesting that so many people's view of him changed once his anti-Semitism slipped out. He was publicly just as homophobic for a very long time before that.
I had never heard of his homophobia until you mentioned it, but like GHcool, it wouldn't surprise me. I'd guess the anti-Semitism would be taken more seriously as anti-Semitism seems to have been responsible for a lot more murders than homophobia. |
| Sean |
Posted - 04/17/2009 : 00:12:24
quote:
Originally posted by Conan The Westy
quote:
Originally posted by Salopian
I think it may be a little optimisic to think that she does not share many of his faulty views. She chose to marry him and stay with him for that long.
She didn't convert to Catholicism in all that time...
On IMDb it mentions he has bi-polar and is manic depressive, perhaps the alcohol is a form of self-medication?
Bipolar disorder is a virtual synonym for manic depression. But you're probably right about the self-medication... I wonder if he blames The Zionists for his depression? |
| Conan The Westy |
Posted - 04/16/2009 : 21:45:13
quote:
Originally posted by Salopian
I think it may be a little optimisic to think that she does not share many of his faulty views. She chose to marry him and stay with him for that long.
She didn't convert to Catholicism in all that time...
On IMDb it mentions he has bi-polar and is manic depressive, perhaps the alcohol is a form of self-medication? |
| GHcool |
Posted - 04/16/2009 : 20:27:37
quote:
Originally posted by Salopian
It's interesting that so many people's view of him changed once his anti-Semitism slipped out. He was publicly just as homophobic for a very long time before that.
I never heard he was homophobic, but it wouldn't surprise me. Do you have a specific public incident in mind? |
| Sal[Au]pian |
Posted - 04/16/2009 : 14:37:56
I think it may be a little optimisic to think that she does not share many of his faulty views. She chose to marry him and stay with him for that long. |
| RockGolf |
Posted - 04/16/2009 : 14:23:49
Holly[wood] Cost Denier. |
| Whippersnapper. |
Posted - 04/16/2009 : 14:21:53
No, he may be a devout Catholic, but he never tried for the priesthood.
Give him his Jew due.
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