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ChocolateLady 
"500 Chocolate Delights"
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 Posted - 05/11/2007 : 08:20:30
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Hey, the Koran has lots of ways to figure out who is doomed and who is not. For instance, if you eat pork you're doomed as well, athiest and believer alike*.
But let's not fool ourselves. Both the Old and New Testament have some pretty damning injunctions as well, and they've been convoluted and twisted to justify violence against "non-belivers" throughout history.
(*Ha, Ha! I'm safe! Er... well, in that respect, at least.) |
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Sean 
"Necrosphenisciform anthropophagist."
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Posted - 05/11/2007 : 09:10:06
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quote:
Originally posted by ChocolateLady
Hey, the Koran has lots of ways to figure out who is doomed and who is not. For instance, if you eat pork you're doomed as well, athiest and believer alike*.
Two of my three main men in Guinea ate pork and drank alcohol. The third wouldn't touch either. All three of them faced Mecca and prayed five times per day. And all of them were happy to compromise on eating during daylight hours during Ramadan, as Allah approves of hard work and you can't work if you don't eat.
They were all good blokes, too.  |
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turrell
"Ohhhh Ohhhh Ohhhh Ohhhh "
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Posted - 05/11/2007 : 19:43:30
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quote:
Originally posted by ChocolateLady
Hey, the Koran has lots of ways to figure out who is doomed and who is not. For instance, if you eat pork you're doomed as well, athiest and believer alike*.
And yet they name their terror (I mean political) organization after Ham? Someone wants it both ways don't they. |
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GHcool
"Forever a curious character."
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Posted - 05/11/2007 : 20:52:34
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quote:
Originally posted by ChocolateLady
But let's not fool ourselves. Both the Old and New Testament have some pretty damning injunctions as well, and they've been convoluted and twisted to justify violence against "non-belivers" throughout history.
True enough, but any modern day Jewish Pinchas (see Numbers 25) would be universally condemned by his own people. The opposite appears to be true in many parts of the Arab world. |
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Whippersnapper. 
"A fourword thinking guy."
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Posted - 05/11/2007 : 21:10:41
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quote:
Originally posted by GHcool
True enough, but any modern day Jewish Pinchas (see Numbers 25) would be universally condemned by his own people. The opposite appears to be true in many parts of the Arab world.
Here lies the saint, Dr. Baruch Kappel Goldstein, blessed be the memory of the righteous and holy man, may the Lord avenge his blood, who devoted his soul to the Jews, Jewish religion and Jewish land. His hands are innocent and his heart is pure. He was killed as a martyr of God on the 14th of Adar, Purim, in the year 5754 (1994).
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GHcool
"Forever a curious character."
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Posted - 05/12/2007 : 21:18:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Whippersnapper
quote:
Originally posted by GHcool
True enough, but any modern day Jewish Pinchas (see Numbers 25) would be universally condemned by his own people. The opposite appears to be true in many parts of the Arab world.
Here lies the saint, Dr. Baruch Kappel Goldstein, blessed be the memory of the righteous and holy man, may the Lord avenge his blood, who devoted his soul to the Jews, Jewish religion and Jewish land. His hands are innocent and his heart is pure. He was killed as a martyr of God on the 14th of Adar, Purim, in the year 5754 (1994).
As I said above, Goldstein was universally condemned by the world and by the Israeli Jewish leadership. He and Yigal Amir, the assassin of Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin, are universally reguarded as two of the most disgusting stains on recent Israeli history. Baruch Goldstein's name is only memorable because he is literally the only Jewish terrorist in at least 40 years. In 1994, the year of Goldstein's infamous massacre of 29 innocent Arabs, the Israeli embassy in London and a Jewish community center in Argentina were bombed by Hezbollah killing 85 innocent Jews. The world condemned these atrocities; the Arab leadership did not. |
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Whippersnapper.
"A fourword thinking guy."
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Posted - 05/12/2007 : 23:42:07
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No, you said that any modern day Pinchas would be "universally condemned" by his own people.
I am pointing out that this statement is (indisputably) incorrect, as Goldstein's murderous acts were and are venerated by some Jews, and not just a handful either. The same is true of Amir [who shot Rabin] although I suspect he has a lot less "soft" support as he murdered a Jew. I define the soft support as those people who say "Of course, they shouldn't have done it but...". (This soft support is very common amongst Muslims for many Muslim terrorist acts against non-Muslims.)
Its also worth noting how the inscription of Goldstein's grave embraces the idea that murder/suicide is martyrdom, just like Hamas. And I suspect that the idea of a murderer/suicide being "innocent" and "pure" would go down well in Gaza City too. So these groups, on opposite sides of the racial divide, are part of an invisible spiritual brotherhood of chaos-seekers.
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GHcool
"Forever a curious character."
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Posted - 05/13/2007 : 00:43:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Whippersnapper
Its also worth noting how the inscription of Goldstein's grave embraces the idea that murder/suicide is martyrdom, just like Hamas. And I suspect that the idea of a murderer/suicide being "innocent" and "pure" would go down well in Gaza City too. So these groups, on opposite sides of the racial divide, are part of an invisible spiritual brotherhood of chaos-seekers.
Fair enough, but Kach is now illegal in Israel and is condemned by a large majority of Israeli and Diaspora Jews as the racist thugs that they were. The same cannot be said about Hamas in the Palestinian territories or Hezbollah in southern Lebanon. Even at the height of Kach's popularity, they would never in a million years win control of the Knessset the way Hamas won control of the Palestinian Authority by a popular vote. Furthermore, Kach has never once achieved any of its political goals whereas Palestinian and Hezbollah terrorism have (argubly) become major bargaining chips in the Arab-Israeli conflict. For these reason, I reject that Kach is the mirror image of Hamas. |
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Whippersnapper.
"A fourword thinking guy."
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Posted - 05/13/2007 : 01:45:51
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It is obvious not the case that Kach and the like are as powerful within Israeli society as Hamas and their ilk are within Palestinian society. Nevertheless they are there and a significant factor and have ideological similarities, which seem to include:
A complete disrespect for secularism and respect for theocracy.
An extreme and genocidal interpretation of religious texts and laws.
The glorification of death, classifying the murderer as a martyr and murder as a holy act.
The pursuit of a religious Utopian ideal which justifies acts of terror.
These far right Israeli groups have had at least two major impacts on the current Israel/Palestinian situation.
Firstly they have influenced the settler movement which is responsible for the settlement of large areas of the West Bank and effectively squeezed moderate Palestinian opinion into something approaching insignificance. For example, the maintenance of a few idiots in Hebron has caused hostility out of all proportion to their numbers.
Secondly they are responsible for the assassination of Rabin who was the best, and arguably only, hope of reaching a permanent peace deal.
It would be hard to overestimate the importance of these two factors in shaping the current bleak situation, so be careful not to forget the importance of the modern day Pinchas and his supporters, even if they don't wear Mickey Mouse suits.
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GHcool
"Forever a curious character."
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Posted - 05/13/2007 : 05:52:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Whippersnapper
It is obvious not the case that Kach and the like are as powerful within Israeli society as Hamas and their ilk are within Palestinian society. Nevertheless they are there and a significant factor and have ideological similarities, which seem to include:
A complete disrespect for secularism and respect for theocracy.
An extreme and genocidal interpretation of religious texts and laws.
The glorification of death, classifying the murderer as a martyr and murder as a holy act.
The pursuit of a religious Utopian ideal which justifies acts of terror.
These far right Israeli groups have had at least two major impacts on the current Israel/Palestinian situation.
Firstly they have influenced the settler movement which is responsible for the settlement of large areas of the West Bank and effectively squeezed moderate Palestinian opinion into something approaching insignificance. For example, the maintenance of a few idiots in Hebron has caused hostility out of all proportion to their numbers.
Secondly they are responsible for the assassination of Rabin who was the best, and arguably only, hope of reaching a permanent peace deal.
It would be hard to overestimate the importance of these two factors in shaping the current bleak situation, so be careful not to forget the importance of the modern day Pinchas and his supporters, even if they don't wear Mickey Mouse suits.
While I agree with what you wrote above the page break, I disagree sharply with what you wrote below it. The settler movement is much older than Kach and although the average settler is tends to be more religious than the average Israeli, that does not mean that the average settler supports or even tolerates terrorism in any form. Even if what you are saying were true, the settler movement (a movement that I disagree with) has not been furthered by either Rabin's assassination nor Goldstein's murderous rampage.
Pointing to the actions of Baruch Goldstein and Yigal Amir and claiming that it is indicative of the settler movement is like pointing to John Wilkes Booth and saying that his behavior was indicative of the Confederacy in 1865. The assassination of Lincoln did not further the southern cause and modern historians generally agree that Lincoln would have handled the Reconstruction of the union better than Andrew Johnson and U.S. Grant did. Similarly, many commentators agree that Rabin would have handled the peace process better than the prime ministers that followed him. |
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ChocolateLady
"500 Chocolate Delights"
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Posted - 05/13/2007 : 06:55:52
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Well... while Baruch Goldstein and Yigal Amir have their "followers", Kach had more influence on the settler movement than either of them. To this day you'll see graffiti that pops up right after any suicide bombing or shelling from Gaza that says "Kahane was right", often with an additional "death to the Arabs" for good measure. However, while Kach was outlawed, Rehavam ("Gandhi") Zeevi's party Moledet was never made illegal, and was probably just as (if not even more) influential on the settler movement due to his advocacy of "voluntary transfer" of the Arab population from the West Bank and Gaza. Moledet, together with Rafael Eitan's party Tzomet were the influences that brought the non-religious groups into the settler movement. Zeevi and Eitan were more mainstream than Kahane, and had more popularity in the long run. Kahane's followers are still considered radical, and many of Zeevi and Eitan's religious followers disagree with Kahane's theocracy ideas.
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Whippersnapper.
"A fourword thinking guy."
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Posted - 05/13/2007 : 10:10:24
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quote:
Originally posted by GHcool
quote:
Originally posted by Whippersnapper
It is obvious not the case that Kach and the like are as powerful within Israeli society as Hamas and their ilk are within Palestinian society. Nevertheless they are there and a significant factor and have ideological similarities, which seem to include:
A complete disrespect for secularism and respect for theocracy.
An extreme and genocidal interpretation of religious texts and laws.
The glorification of death, classifying the murderer as a martyr and murder as a holy act.
The pursuit of a religious Utopian ideal which justifies acts of terror.
These far right Israeli groups have had at least two major impacts on the current Israel/Palestinian situation.
Firstly they have influenced the settler movement which is responsible for the settlement of large areas of the West Bank and effectively squeezed moderate Palestinian opinion into something approaching insignificance. For example, the maintenance of a few idiots in Hebron has caused hostility out of all proportion to their numbers.
Secondly they are responsible for the assassination of Rabin who was the best, and arguably only, hope of reaching a permanent peace deal.
It would be hard to overestimate the importance of these two factors in shaping the current bleak situation, so be careful not to forget the importance of the modern day Pinchas and his supporters, even if they don't wear Mickey Mouse suits.
While I agree with what you wrote above the page break, I disagree sharply with what you wrote below it. The settler movement is much older than Kach and although the average settler is tends to be more religious than the average Israeli, that does not mean that the average settler supports or even tolerates terrorism in any form. Even if what you are saying were true, the settler movement (a movement that I disagree with) has not been furthered by either Rabin's assassination nor Goldstein's murderous rampage.
Pointing to the actions of Baruch Goldstein and Yigal Amir and claiming that it is indicative of the settler movement is like pointing to John Wilkes Booth and saying that his behavior was indicative of the Confederacy in 1865. The assassination of Lincoln did not further the southern cause and modern historians generally agree that Lincoln would have handled the Reconstruction of the union better than Andrew Johnson and U.S. Grant did. Similarly, many commentators agree that Rabin would have handled the peace process better than the prime ministers that followed him.
I did not say any such thing.
I said they influenced the settler movement, not that they were the settler movement or a majority of that movement.
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Downtown 
"Welcome back, Billy Buck"
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Posted - 05/13/2007 : 16:34:29
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The "world community" never makes excuses for Zionist extremists and their atrocities, but when the Palestinians use their free elections to hand their government over to a terrorist organization that openly calls for Israel's destruction, that's the Israelis' fault for making themselves so hated.
Hamas controlling the government and putting the moderate President and his Party under siege until he publicly condoned their use of violence against the "invaders" are not the acts of a few extremists trying to polarize the masses, it IS the masses. This is democracy at work. The Palestinians made their voices heard, and the majority of them cast their ballots for a "Party" who's platform is the perpetual waging of a war that they already lost 60 years ago. The idea that "it's wrong, but the 'Israelis' brought it on themselves" is completely unfair, but it's also very typical and unsurprising. We might as well start referencing the PEZ.
And lets not forget the other elephant in the room, Hezbollah, which isn't a Palestinian organization and can't claim to be fighting for their sovereignty. |
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Downtown
"Welcome back, Billy Buck"
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Posted - 05/17/2007 : 23:17:18
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As of right now, the Palestinians are too busy fighting each other (again) to worry about Israel.
In the US and the rest of the civilized world, rival political parties call each other names, bicker, refuse to cooperate with various spending bills, and generally try to make things difficult for the opposition. In Palestine, they shoot each other and take hostages. With whom is Israel supposed to negotiate for peace? |
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Whippersnapper.
"A fourword thinking guy."
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Posted - 05/17/2007 : 23:30:26
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Your contention that the Palestinians are too busy to worry about Israel is mistaken.
Over 30 Qassam missiles were fired at Israel from Gaza today (Thursday).
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Hamas enlists "Micky Mouse"
