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Montgomery 
"F**k!"
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 Posted - 06/19/2007 : 18:23:09
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I wanna like it. It's hard to read, though, since almost every line is tongue in cheek.
There are very funny bits. But there is no plot I can find so far.
Anyone have an opinion for me?
I'm about 3/4 of the way through.
EM :) |
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Downtown 
"Welcome back, Billy Buck"
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Posted - 06/19/2007 : 19:18:22
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quote:
Anyone have an opinion for me?
Don't expect it to get easier to read, because it won't.
But it's worth it anyway. You might even want to read it a second time.
I would encourage you NOT to read the rest of this post, since you haven't finished the book yet. But since you did ask about this....
There's no plot because it's about the bureaucracy of the War Machine, a massive, amoeba-like organization that moves of its own enertia. The Pentagon's right hand has no idea what its left hand is doing...and you have no idea what EITHER hand is doing, until one of them reaches out and slaps you in the face...and even then you still don't understand why.
See, the biggest misconception about Catch-22 is that it's about Yossarian. It isn't. Yossarian is just the observer...he's you, the reader. Catch-22 is really about Milo, who represents the entire military bureaucracy more than being a single character. But you have to figure that out for yourself. It's not immediately obvious to the reader, and even at the end it's not obvious to most of the characters in the story, especially the generals, who run around thinking they're in charge when obviously they aren't. And that's the whole point. The generals aren't in charge, the politicians aren't in charge...the bureaucracy has taken over, and even individual bureaucrats themselves - like Major Major Major Major - are powerless.
Edit: Milo, and Ex-PFC Wintergreen. I should have included Wintergreen, who hopes to someday be an ex-General and not just an ex-Private. If Milo's the left hand, Wintergreen is the right hand. |
Edited by - Downtown on 06/19/2007 19:22:37 |
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Montgomery
"F**k!"
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Posted - 06/19/2007 : 19:29:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Downtown
quote:
Anyone have an opinion for me?
Don't expect it to get easier to read, because it won't.
But it's worth it anyway. You might even want to read it a second time.
I would encourage you NOT to read the rest of this post, since you haven't finished the book yet. But since you did ask about this....
There's no plot because it's about the bureaucracy of the War Machine, a massive, amoeba-like organization that moves of its own enertia. The Pentagon's right hand has no idea what its left hand is doing...and you have no idea what EITHER hand is doing, until one of them reaches out and slaps you in the face...and even then you still don't understand why.
See, the biggest misconception about Catch-22 is that it's about Yossarian. It isn't. Yossarian is just the observer...he's you, the reader. Catch-22 is really about Milo, who represents the entire military bureaucracy more than being a single character. But you have to figure that out for yourself. It's not immediately obvious to the reader, and even at the end it's not obvious to most of the characters in the story, especially the generals, who run around thinking they're in charge when obviously they aren't. And that's the whole point. The generals aren't in charge, the politicians aren't in charge...the bureaucracy has taken over, and even individual bureaucrats themselves - like Major Major Major Major - are powerless.
Edit: Milo, and Ex-PFC Wintergreen. I should have included Wintergreen, who hopes to someday be an ex-General and not just an ex-Private. If Milo's the left hand, Wintergreen is the right hand.
I read what you wrote, because I am 3/4 of the way through. And I've gotten through a lot of the stuff about Milo and his organization that everyone has a stake in. :)
There are very funny parts. I'm just used to a plot of some kind.
I do plan to finish it.
EM :) |
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tortoise 
"Still reviewing, but slowly."
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Posted - 06/19/2007 : 20:20:12
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Good. But don't bother with the belated sequel Closing Time.  |
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MguyXXVI
"X marks the spot"
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Posted - 06/20/2007 : 04:41:03
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I'm sorry to hear that about Closing Time, because I bought it a while ago hoping to get to it. I suspected it might be following too hard an act.
Catch-22 is one of my favorite novels, and I found it riveting. But that you might not have the exact same response Montgomery is perhaps not so curious a thing. It may be a male-oriented book.
For example, try as I might, I just cannot reead anything by Virginia Woolfe. I have nothing bad to say about her: I just cannot get engaged in her writing. And since many people whose taste I trust CAN get engaged, I figure the issue is somewhere with me. Someone suggested that Woolfe has a more female-oriented style that I may not be able to connect with.
I punched that guy out, because that couldn't be it. 
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ChocolateLady
"500 Chocolate Delights"
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Posted - 06/20/2007 : 07:08:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Montgomery
I wanna like it. It's hard to read, though, since almost every line is tongue in cheek.
There are very funny bits. But there is no plot I can find so far.
Anyone have an opinion for me?
I'm about 3/4 of the way through.
EM :)
Finish it, since you can't get the full beauty of that novel until you have. And once you've finished it, I promise you, you'll want to start reading it all over again. It isn't a plot driven book, it is a character driven book - and that means you should be concentrating on the characters, not the "story". It is one of the best character studies I've ever read, and isn't considered a all-time classic for nothing, I assure you.
(Being dyslexic, I read far slower than most people, so I don't often re-read books. However, I've read Catch-22 about four or five times, and I intend to read it again, probably even before I've bought a copy that isn't falling apart!)
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Downtown
"Welcome back, Billy Buck"
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Posted - 06/20/2007 : 13:58:31
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quote:
Originally posted by MguyX
I'm sorry to hear that about Closing Time, because I bought it a while ago hoping to get to it. I suspected it might be following too hard an act.
There's a reason it took Heller so long to finish the sequel. He couldn't even put out another book for over a decade. Catch-22 was so good it practically wrecked his career. It's a terrible thing for an artist to put out their best work first. Sad but true. |
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Downtown
"Welcome back, Billy Buck"
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Posted - 06/20/2007 : 14:03:25
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quote:
Originally posted by ChocolateLady
Being dyslexic, I read far slower than most people, so I don't often re-read books. However, I've read Catch-22 about four or five times, and I intend to read it again, probably even before I've bought a copy that isn't falling apart!
I've never known anyone to describe Catch-22 as anything less than "a difficult read." It's just the kind of book where you're bound to find yourself re-reading paragraphs or even whole pages to make sure you got everything. Dyslexic or not, I doubt your experience with this particular book is much different from anyone else...including your response to it when finished and enthusiasm for reading it again!
It simply requires a lot of mental attention...it's not a book I'd recommend for a morning commute. But everything is relative...in my opinion, compared to 1984, Catch-22 is almost like reading a comic book. |
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ChocolateLady
"500 Chocolate Delights"
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Posted - 06/20/2007 : 15:05:52
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I wouldn't call "Catch-22" all that difficult as far as language is concerned, and yes, you do sometimes have to go back over a paragraph or two, but the really difficult part is... well... if I say "I'm cold", I think you get the idea.
(But I loved Milo!)
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Montgomery
"F**k!"
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Posted - 06/20/2007 : 15:10:31
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quote:
Originally posted by MguyX
I just cannot reead anything by Virginia Woolfe. I have nothing bad to say about her: I just cannot get engaged in her writing. And since many people whose taste I trust CAN get engaged, I figure the issue is somewhere with me. Someone suggested that Woolfe has a more female-oriented style that I may not be able to connect with.
I punched that guy out, because that couldn't be it.
I didn't much like Wolfe either. Too slow. I do love Austen, though. And that's very much a chick thing.
And, I don't want you guys to think I do not appreciate Catch-22. It is very funny in parts. It's like a whole book where every character is the Hawkeye character in M.A.S.H. No line is wasted. They are all filled with double meanings and sly jokes. It's very humorous. But that is a lot of work.
Ever hang out with someone who is very funny? Almost everything they say is some kind of a joke or slam on something? It's entertaining. But a lot of work to keep up and feel like you've gotten all the jokes. I know that last comment made me seem like I'm stupid or no fun to talk to. It's not that. It's just some people (and books) are more work, because you don't want to miss a thing. That's how I feel about Catch-22.
I never read books twice. The only book I have started to do that with is "Lovely Bones" which really touched me the first time I read it. I was just a mess throughout.
And, I will someday reread Pride & Prejudice, because I have read all of Jane Austen's work and she isn't writing anything new. 
EM :)
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Downtown
"Welcome back, Billy Buck"
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Posted - 06/22/2007 : 21:06:56
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quote:
Originally posted by ChocolateLady
I wouldn't call "Catch-22" all that difficult as far as language is concerned, and yes, you do sometimes have to go back over a paragraph or two, but the really difficult part is... well... if I say "I'm cold", I think you get the idea.
(But I loved Milo!)
There, there. |
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w22dheartlivie
"Kitty Lover"
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Posted - 06/24/2007 : 00:19:07
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My dad tried to introduce me to the classics when I was about 7 and had the mumps. He went to the library and came home with Robinson Crusoe and To Kill A Mockingbird. I read Mockingbird then, and struggled my way through Robinson Crusoe. Dad seemed to have high expectations.
I read Catch-22 in high school and recall being a little bewildered by it. Much later, after I graduated from college, I read it again, just before I embarked on my summer long task of reading the great literature I'd managed to avoid by testing out of my English requirements. I loved it the second time. I did get to Jane Austen, Alexandre Dumas, Shakespeare, Charlotte and Emily Bronte, Hemingway, some Tolstoy and Dostoyevsky, George Eliot, Thomas Hardy, Ibsen, Thackeray and Hawthorne.
I minored in Classic Culture, which meant I had to read The Illiad, The Odyssey, The Aeneid, The Republic, Metamorphoses, Prometheus Bound, Medea, Antigone, Electra, yada yada yada.
Having said that, I still have books on my "should have read in college" list, because I found myself really struggling with Charles Dickens (?) as the summer grew late. I'm really grateful these days for places like Project Gutenberg. It keeps me out of the library!
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demonic
"Cinemaniac"
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Posted - 06/24/2007 : 04:36:22
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I came to Catch-22 relatively late - only two or three years ago I guess, slightly daunted by all the "modern classic" and "greatest" expectations all around it. It took me a little while to get used to the tone - there's an overtly zany, almost hyperactive tone to the whole book that rarely lets up - every character is an extreme of some sort and every scene is primed for comedy. Once I got into the swing of it I found myself frequently laughing and being dazzled at how each scene had been expertly set up. I found it helped to think of the action like a very well written sitcom - that's how I remember the book now; as a series of great sketches, very vividly as there are so many good bits. But things are revealed gradually, and odd moments early on only come together later if I remember rightly.
*Spoiler ahoy!*
I think at the end you realise better why everything was so zany - it's far more impactful to read the about the genuine horrors of Yossarian's mission through that comedy angle than a straightforward blood and guts war book - it hit me much harder, and it reflects the lunatic terror those guys must have felt flying again and again to an almost inevitable death. I have no doubts at all why it's rated so highly as a novel - it instantly went into my list of favourite books when I finished it. I hope you enjoy the rest Monty.  |
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BaftaBaby 
"Always entranced by cinema."
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Posted - 06/24/2007 : 07:36:16
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If anyone wants to visit a different side of Joseph Heller, I can highly recommend No Laughing Matter, the book he co-wrote with Speed Vogel about his journey through the debilitating Guillain-Barre syndrome which left him paralyzed but undaunted. It's ... how can I put it? ... it's human.
His novel God Knows is quite a gem, too. 
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Koli
"Striving lackadaisically for perfection."
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Posted - 06/24/2007 : 12:45:54
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quote:
Originally posted by wildhartlivie
My dad tried to introduce me to the classics when I was about 7 and had the mumps. He went to the library and came home with Robinson Crusoe and To Kill A Mockingbird. I read Mockingbird then, and struggled my way through Robinson Crusoe. Dad seemed to have high expectations.
I read Catch-22 in high school and recall being a little bewildered by it. Much later, after I graduated from college, I read it again, just before I embarked on my summer long task of reading the great literature I'd managed to avoid by testing out of my English requirements. I loved it the second time. I did get to Jane Austen, Alexandre Dumas, Shakespeare, Charlotte and Emily Bronte, Hemingway, some Tolstoy and Dostoyevsky, George Eliot, Thomas Hardy, Ibsen, Thackeray and Hawthorne.
I minored in Classic Culture, which meant I had to read The Illiad, The Odyssey, The Aeneid, The Republic, Metamorphoses, Prometheus Bound, Medea, Antigone, Electra, yada yada yada.
Having said that, I still have books on my "should have read in college" list, because I found myself really struggling with Charles Dickens (?) as the summer grew late. I'm really grateful these days for places like Project Gutenberg. It keeps me out of the library!
It's a long time since I read Catch 22 but I don't remember it as being particularly difficult. Maybe that's because, like Wildhart, I had been 'encouraged' to read Dickens while at school. I was supposed to study Vanity Fair by Thackeray for my English A Level exam, but it was 954 pages so I never read it. I had long before that decided that there were many books that I simply couldn't bear to read. I have tried several times to read Charles Kingsley's The Water Babies but never got far beyond the bit where the main character enters the water. I suppose fantasy is just not my cup of tea.
The breakthrough came about 10-12 years ago when I got to the end of The Bell by Iris Murdoch. At last I had finished a big fat book. Since then I've been much less daunted by 'difficult' or long books, and have read The Illiad, The Odyssey, The Trial and a few other difficult/long books. But I still grind to a halt part way through some books. For example, when reading Leon Aron's biography of Boris Yeltsin I didn't quite get to the bit where he became president, and patiently waiting on my bedside cabinet for rediscovery are The Hours by Michael Cunningham (abandoned, p24), and Cat's Eye by Margaret Atwood (p26). 
I find Jane Austen exquisitely witty, but I can't get into her books at all. I suppose I'm one of the millions who have enjoyed her novels only/mainly via film and TV. |
Edited by - Koli on 06/24/2007 12:48:22 |
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ChocolateLady
"500 Chocolate Delights"
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Posted - 06/24/2007 : 13:02:18
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quote:
Originally posted by BaftaBabe
If anyone wants to visit a different side of Joseph Heller, I can highly recommend No Laughing Matter, the book he co-wrote with Speed Vogel about his journey through the debilitating Guillain-Barre syndrome which left him paralyzed but undaunted. It's ... how can I put it? ... it's human.
His novel God Knows is quite a gem, too.
Really? I read Good as Gold and was shocked by how inferior it was after Catch-22, and I don't remember most of it. Then I tried to read Something Happened and when I found that nothing did, I stopped reading his books altogether.
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Reading Catch-22.
