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Whippersnapper. 
"A fourword thinking guy."
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 Posted - 04/30/2008 : 17:32:35
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Look, I do not having any nagging thought that, under different circumstances, I might be capable of doing equally horrible things, and, frankly, I doubt you do either, at least not with any seriousness. But if you do, then you are very different from me in that respect.
I know full well that Herr Fritzl is a human being (although this does not necessarily make him "just like us"). I am not interested in calling him a "monster", or "evil", neither of which seem to me to clarify the situation, but I am keen on locking him up for the rest of his natural life both as appropriate punishment, as deterrent and for the safety of others.
And as for trying to understand what makes a Herr Fritzl, I don't know what "born evil" really means, or how you could test the idea as any baby will have experiences so how could you tell whether his actions are the result of an inherent disposition present at birth or the result of changes which occurred due to personal experiences? Or both?
What I am objecting to is not sociological investigation, but the idea that Herr Fritzl should be seen as a victim of his life experiences. Whatever they were, he was and remains responsible for his actions.
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BaftaBaby 
"Always entranced by cinema."
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Posted - 04/30/2008 : 17:56:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Whippersnapper
What I am objecting to is not sociological investigation, but the idea that Herr Fritzl should be seen as a victim of his life experiences. Whatever they were, he was and remains responsible for his actions.
I agree - but I believe it doesn't get us anywhere as a society merely to concentrate on one person's actions. Despite media hysteria, it's precisely the investigation of the wider context that has any chance of a re-evaluation of the conditions that could so warp a human being.
Honestly, I can't see where that implies I condone his actions because he's a victim. He is, of course, in a way - though to focus on that would be callow -- but that's not the point, and just doesn't get us closer to understanding. Not understanding him. Understanding us. Our society. A society which could produce someone like this.
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Sal[Au]pian 
"Four ever European"
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Posted - 05/01/2008 : 00:04:58
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One only needs to look at Rwanda to accept that large proportions of the population are prepared to murder without anything approaching a good reason. Fritzl is more unusual than that, and more depraved, but perhaps larger numbers haven't done things like him simply because of circumstances (less money, no engineering knowledge, wife less of a pushover).
I have seen reports today of the children 'growling and cooing' between themselves, and having to concentrate to speak. As I'm reasonably knowledgable about language acquisition, I feel fairly confident that this is an exaggeration, or at least will readily be overcome. Their active vocabulary will be very limited, as there was absolutely no variety to their lives, and their core speech was learned from a single human being (and one who was experientially nineteen years old). However, their passive vocabulary from the television will soon get into use.
I was surprised that the five-year-old asking if the Moon was God was given as an example of their shelteredness. That seems to me the kind of question that any five-year-old might ask.  |
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Sean 
"Necrosphenisciform anthropophagist."
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Posted - 05/01/2008 : 01:40:40
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quote:
Originally posted by BaftaBabe
Some psychologists who study aberrant behaviour like this reckon that's why there's such a rush to tag the people as monsters, other, not one of us, inhuman. Sure the acts are ... but something happened to these people to turn them into sociopaths and psychopaths.
Psychopathy has been studied for a long time. And it does actually make sense to brand psychopaths as monsters, they're simply 'normal' human beings who've never learned empathy. Human babies aren't born with empathy, it's something that's learned, and for whatever reasons (it's commonly believed to be a blend of nature and nurture) some never learn empathy. That makes them capable of doing horrible things to other people without remorse, they're emotionless predators.
BTW, many (perhaps most?) species are innately psychopathic. Reptiles, fish, insects, hyenas, lions etc. Even if you stick to mammals, I'm guessing empathy is the aberration, not the absence of it. Hence I don't see any point in feeling guilty about being a member of a species that contains a small percentage of psychopaths.
Also, the fact that Austria has had three prominent cases of basement imprisonment may be principally related to the existence of Cold War nuclear fallout shelters in Austria. I'm guessing there are very, very few underground bunkers in New Zealand capable of holding someone for a lengthy period. Perhaps if bunkers under houses were common globally then some of the rape-murder cases (that are common globally) would have been rape-imprisonment cases similar to these Austrian ones. For example, a 15 year old girl was raped and murdered and dumped in a river in NZ a few weeks ago (the likely motivation for the murder was to avoid detection), but perhaps if the killer had a soundproofed life-sustaining bunker at his disposal then she'd be in that rather than in the river. |
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Sal[Au]pian
"Four ever European"
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Posted - 05/01/2008 : 02:10:31
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Good point about the bunkers in two of the cases (especially as both of the perpetrators got government grants to build them!), but the sisters in Linz were just kept in a house (full of shit). Three years on, the oldest of those is more damaged than I anticipate any of the Frinkls to be/remain.
I still can't shake this out of my head. It's just there at the back all the time. |
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Sal[Au]pian
"Four ever European"
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Sean
"Necrosphenisciform anthropophagist."
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Whippersnapper.
"A fourword thinking guy."
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If you thought the case of Natascha Kampusch...
