| Author |
 Topic  |
|
Sal[Au]pian 
"Four ever European"
|
 Posted - 04/29/2008 : 13:48:31
|
quote:
Originally posted by Se�n
I actually think that what he did was worse than if he'd killed them all
I of course don't want to play this down in any way, but most accounts thankfully do seem to be suggesting that the two boys are doing much better psychologically than one would have thought. Although the imprisonment was unimaginably cruel, they didn't know anything else and had each other. Natascha Kampusch didn't have either of these potential advantages and she, while a bit strange, seems to be relatively all right. (Another advantage is that they have her to talk to, i.e. to relate to and to see a hopeful future.) Hopefully T.V. will have meant that they are able to cope with the general set-up of the world, with much support. (It's not clear how long they had a T.V. -- I have been wondering whether they saw Kampusch's story.) I feel relatively confident that the five-year-old will be O.K., at least. (He was excited to go in a real car, for example, not frightened or bewildered, for example.) And at least the cellar children have the meagre benefits that they presumably knew their origins and won't feel any guilt. For the upstairs children, coping with the incest revelation is going to be very traumatic, and they will have the equivalent of survivors' guilt. I think it might be hardest of all for Elisabeth.
But again, I don't want to play down the horror of all this, and any of them could have a crisis at any time. It has been on my mind almost constantly since the news broke, and I felt a surreal fear going to bed each time. |
Edited by - Sal[Au]pian on 04/29/2008 13:55:39 |
 |
|
|
Sal[Au]pian
"Four ever European"
|
Posted - 04/29/2008 : 13:59:26
|
quote:
Originally posted by Se�n
She also 'failed to notice' that he'd been feeding many other mouths for up to 24 years
Apparently by wheelbarrow, too.
What about Elisabeth's six siblings? Did none of them make any attempt to find her either, especially when the babies turned up? |
|
|
|
ChocolateLady
"500 Chocolate Delights"
|
Posted - 04/30/2008 : 08:53:57
|
Of course, the question of "Why Austria?" is also compelling.
(I'm not making any parallels here, but you do know that Hitler was Austrian... ) |
|
|
|
BaftaBaby 
"Always entranced by cinema."
|
Posted - 04/30/2008 : 10:43:08
|
quote:
Originally posted by ChocolateLady
Of course, the question of "Why Austria?" is also compelling.
(I'm not making any parallels here, but you do know that Hitler was Austrian... )
Yeah, so was Mozart ... and David Berkowitz was Jewish. Your point being ...???
|
|
|
|
Sean 
"Necrosphenisciform anthropophagist."
|
Posted - 04/30/2008 : 13:16:06
|
| I think this could have happened in many places. I pay no attention to my neighbours, have no idea how much grocery shopping they do, pay no attention to how much garbage they leave out, have no idea who most of them are, or how many people live in each house. This could happen in any society with a "mind your own business" mentality. |
|
|
|
Whippersnapper. 
"A fourword thinking guy."
|
Posted - 04/30/2008 : 13:41:06
|
quote:
Originally posted by BaftaBabe
quote:
Originally posted by ChocolateLady
Of course, the question of "Why Austria?" is also compelling.
(I'm not making any parallels here, but you do know that Hitler was Austrian... )
Yeah, so was Mozart ... and David Berkowitz was Jewish. Your point being ...???
You're so right Baffy. This could have happened anywhere.
It just happened to be in Austria.
Again. 
( )
|
|
|
|
Sal[Au]pian
"Four ever European"
|
Posted - 04/30/2008 : 13:55:15
|
| To start with, I completely treated it as a coincidence. However, this is what my friend in Vienna said: "Austrians made up 40% of concentration camp guards and 3/4 of the the commanders (for under 10% of the population). It's in their nature." Put it this way: a small country cannot have three of the worst ever unlawful imprisonment cases within three years and not take the time to assess itself in case something is going wrong at a wider level. |
|
|
|
ChocolateLady
"500 Chocolate Delights"
|
Posted - 04/30/2008 : 13:59:55
|
quote:
Originally posted by BaftaBabe
quote:
Originally posted by ChocolateLady
Of course, the question of "Why Austria?" is also compelling.
(I'm not making any parallels here, but you do know that Hitler was Austrian... )
Yeah, so was Mozart ... and David Berkowitz was Jewish. Your point being ...???
I'm just saying that this is what the papers are saying that people in Austria have been voicing themselves.
|
|
|
|
Whippersnapper.
"A fourword thinking guy."
|
Posted - 04/30/2008 : 14:40:43
|
It's hard to say which would be more productive for our Austrian brothers - searching their souls or searching their cellars.
|
|
|
|
BaftaBaby
"Always entranced by cinema."
|
Posted - 04/30/2008 : 15:40:05
|
I dunno - the dribs and drabs leaking out of the newsroom about this case keep raising more questions. Now the cops think there may be a link to a long unsolved murder of a young woman whose body happened to have been found close to where Mrs. Fritzl used to run a restaurant. So I can construct at least three plausible if horrific scenarios.
I guess one of the scariest things about the whole story [and all those like it -- e.g. Fred West] is the nagging thought we just - in other circumstances - might be capable of equally horrific behaviour.
Some psychologists who study aberrant behaviour like this reckon that's why there's such a rush to tag the people as monsters, other, not one of us, inhuman. Sure the acts are ... but something happened to these people to turn them into sociopaths and psychopaths. Yes, Whipper - they took the wrong path.
I'm sure we weren't evolved to live such isolated lives. Such I'm-All-Right-Jack lives. It's probably gone too far. I know I admire aplenty the more communal, extended family kind of life ... but the very thought of living like that sends me screaming in the other direction.
Poor, poor Fritzls - especially those youngsters. Can you imagine -- the little boy gasped in awe when he saw the moon for the first time in his life. Oh, those poor children. Will they every recover?
|
|
|
|
Sal[Au]pian
"Four ever European"
|
Posted - 04/30/2008 : 15:52:37
|
quote:
Originally posted by BaftaBabe
Can you imagine -- the little boy gasped in awe when he saw the moon for the first time in his life.
It's so awful that that situation has been brought about -- but the situation itself is very moving. I don't know why I'm saying this, as it is not even a millionth of a percent justification -- I guess I want to grasp the positives.
You're so right about the them and us demonisation, but on the other hand I'm not sure there'd be much use in people recognising that this is just an aspect of human behaviour. I don't care how much hate is laden on him, even if people have indirect reasons for it. It's like the reverse of Princess Diana. |
|
|
|
Sal[Au]pian
"Four ever European"
|
Posted - 04/30/2008 : 15:56:15
|
| Another issue that I haven't seen raised but which a lot of people must be wondering about is whether the abuse continued into the next generation. Maybe there's some hope that it didn't. And I unfortunately cannot forget Flowers in the Attic when I wonder about the downstairs teenagers. |
|
|
|
Sal[Au]pian
"Four ever European"
|
|
|
Whippersnapper.
"A fourword thinking guy."
|
Posted - 04/30/2008 : 16:34:16
|
quote:
Originally posted by BaftaBabe
Yes, Whipper - they took the wrong path.
Yes, poor Herr Fritzl just took the wrong path in life and so really he's little more than a victim of circumstances. There but for the grace of God go I?
You may or may not be capable of "equally horrific behaviour" as you put it, but I know I'm not.
|
|
|
|
BaftaBaby
"Always entranced by cinema."
|
Posted - 04/30/2008 : 16:53:20
|
quote:
Originally posted by Whippersnapper
quote:
Originally posted by BaftaBabe
Yes, Whipper - they took the wrong path.
Yes, poor Herr Fritzl just took the wrong path in life and so really he's little more than a victim of circumstances. There but for the grace of God go I?
You may or may not be capable of "equally horrific behaviour" as you put it, but I know I'm not.
Now, now, you know that's not what I meant -- I was just trying to pre-empt some punny remark you might have made about the two words I used that ended in 'path.'
Of course Fritzl's acts are monstrous. And as to our being capable of something similar - I was careful to qualify it by implying who knows what we'd do in similar circumstances. Because we have no idea what might have produced the Fritzl who is clearly capable of such horror ... unless you believe, as I don't, that people are born evil.
Just so we're clear - nothing I've said is in any way meant to excuse what he did. But, apparently, we keep on not learning lessons about what produces this kind of behaviour in people.
I hate what the guy did. Hate it beyond words, beyond rage. All my sympathy is with the daughter and the kids. But we're never going to get anywhere near understanding how a little Austrian baby could grow up to commit these monstrous acts unless we first admit he's a human being. At some point, one just like us.
Getting angry with me, or Austria, I don't think gets us anywhere helpful.
|
|
|
|
Topic |
|
If you thought the case of Natascha Kampusch...
