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Conan The Westy 
"Father, Faithful Friend, Fwiffer"
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 Posted - 09/01/2008 : 12:52:49
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quote:
Originally posted by wildheartlivie
The more I'm reading, the more I'm finding paradoxes like that. She is pro-death penalty for men who rape and murder, but against abortion, for example, for a woman who is raped. I'm not following that logic.
I can. The man is at fault, the baby isn't.
The "liberal" version puts the baby to death and frees the man in 10-15 years.
In both cases the woman suffers.
(By the way I don't advocate the death penalty. As for a baby born as a result of rape, a friend of mine was put in that position and she kept the baby - she was a truly delightful child too). |
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Whippersnapper. 
"A fourword thinking guy."
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Posted - 09/01/2008 : 13:03:41
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Right. Let's insist that women raped and impregnated carry through their pregnancy, against their wishes if necessary, so the child can then be brought up in an atmosphere of open or ulterior hostility from its only parent.
That should make for a happy society.
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Conan The Westy
"Father, Faithful Friend, Fwiffer"
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Posted - 09/01/2008 : 13:25:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Whippersnapper
Right. Let's insist that women raped and impregnated carry through their pregnancy, against their wishes if necessary, so the child can then be brought up in an atmosphere of open or ulterior hostility from its only parent.
That should make for a happy society.
Did I say that she was forced to carry the baby to term?
She chose to raise the child. Sorry Whipper that you can't imagine a woman not being able to still love the child despite the circumstances of the conception. |
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Whippersnapper.
"A fourword thinking guy."
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Posted - 09/01/2008 : 13:38:52
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I can imagine that very well thanks, but its not what Livie is talking about and neither am I.
She's talking about Palin's opposition to a raped woman having the right to abort if she so chooses. [I don't personally know if this is Palin's position, but Livie probably knows what she's talking about.]
You seem to be saying that, because the baby is "not at fault" it is understandable to deny the woman this option.
And I'm saying that if a woman in that position wants to have an abortion, it is in her and society's best interests to support that right, as there's no great shortage of screwed-up people walking the streets at the moment, without insisting on the creation of another very high risk group.
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Conan The Westy
"Father, Faithful Friend, Fwiffer"
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Posted - 09/01/2008 : 13:48:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Whippersnapper
I can imagine that very well thanks, but its not what Livie is talking about and neither am I.
She's talking about Palin's opposition to a raped woman having the right to abort if she so chooses. [I don't personally know if this is Palin's position, but Livie probably knows what she's talking about.]
You seem to be saying that, because the baby is "not at fault" it is understandable to deny the woman this option.
And I'm saying that if a woman in that position wants to have an abortion, it is in her and society's best interests to support that right, as there's no great shortage of screwed-up people walking the streets at the moment, without insisting on the creation of another very high risk group.
While happily typing from the other side of the world I am saying that I can understand the desire not to make the child an extra victim. My example was a true life one that I witnessed.
Livie was saying she couldn't follow the logic; I was saying I could see the logic in killing the one truly guilty party even if I didn't agree with it. |
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Whippersnapper.
"A fourword thinking guy."
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Posted - 09/01/2008 : 14:22:25
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I think we are in danger of getting bogged down in semantics here.
Yes, Palin's position does, literally, have a sort of logic, but that logic is simplistic and ignores its adverse moral and social consequences.
Politicians should be able to foresee the consequences of their proposed policies and, if necessary, amend them accordingly. Given that, in Livie's opinion, and mine too, Palin has failed to do this, in that sense Palin's position is "illogical".
As I say, I think this is just semantics, and the real question is whether raped women should have the right to demand an abortion.
Palin is against it, Livie and I are for it. Where do you stand?
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damalc 
"last watched: Sausage Party"
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Posted - 09/01/2008 : 15:03:47
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quote:
Originally posted by chazbo
Here's a rather unambiguous photo of Sarah Palin.
that's kinda hot |
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rockfsh 
"Laugh, Love, Cheer"
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Whippersnapper.
"A fourword thinking guy."
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Posted - 09/01/2008 : 17:49:46
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Ill-conceived.
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duh 
"catpurrs"
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Posted - 09/01/2008 : 22:01:32
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quote:
Originally posted by rockfsh
Palin's stance on abortion
This disappoints me, even though it was a hypothetical statement.
I think it would be utterly inhumane to force a 14 year old child who was raped, to bear the conception to term. A 14 year old girl is still practically a baby herself. The thought of anyone getting raped is horrible enough, let alone that it happens to children.
Nonetheless, I am a conservative, overall. |
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Conan The Westy
"Father, Faithful Friend, Fwiffer"
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Posted - 09/01/2008 : 22:42:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Whippersnapper
As I say, I think this is just semantics, and the real question is whether raped women should have the right to demand an abortion.
Palin is against it, Livie and I are for it. Where do you stand?
It seems that Palin has been consistent in her pro-life commitment just as you are being consistent in your pro-choice view.
As for me, I am against rape. I am also against abortion. As I said in my original post in any scenario involving rape the woman suffers - all options offer her pain. As a father, I hope that neither of my daughters are ever faced with such a dilemma.
However it seems to me that this argument is generally used by the pro-choice movement as a smokescreen to protect the rights of women to use abortion as contraception rather than as a genuine concern for rape victims. Surely the rate of abortion in western society is too high. Australia has some of the world's highest teenage pregnancy and abortion rates, with around 22 abortions for every 1,000 teenagers each year, compared with 19 live births. http://www.abc.net.au/worldtoday/content/2003/s917051.htm
It is also not as safe as people make out. A member of my wife's family had two abortions, one for rape and one for convenience. She had great difficulty in conceiving and has spoken of feeling guilt. At no point have we been anything but supportive of her.
Surely rape victims deserve our support rather than being the rope in the tug-of-war between opposing worldviews. |
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w22dheartlivie
"Kitty Lover"
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Posted - 09/01/2008 : 22:56:22
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Thanks Whipper, you've probably stated my viewpoint better than I could. Sometimes, one is forced to examine one's views, not philosophically, but as they apply to real life. The result of that can be surprising. I was once pro-death penalty and I've always supported a woman's right to choose.
I've discussed this here before, but I'll briefly review it. I've been given the unfortunate opportunity to explore my views on the death penalty first hand and, while I acknowledge that based on the question of innocent vs. guilty, my opinion may not follow some logic, my experience allowed me to work through it. I don't favor the death penalty for a man who rapes and murders. On the contrary, costs and state burden aside, I realized that I want that man to live a very long life, locked away. When the victim was my goddaughter, I wanted him to have an extremely long life. There was no anticipation of revenge in my heart had the man been executed, there was certainly no anticipation of justice, and all my education taught me there would be no deterrence for the next guy so inclined to act. The punishment ends when the rapist is dead. We were quite satisfied with three 35-life consecutive sentences, and were this guy to ever come up for parole, we'd be like the Tate family and trek to New York each year for the parole hearings, hold up our pictures of Sunshine and talk about a gifted child who wanted to help those that are less fortunate.
I'm glad that there are women in the world who can manage to carry and give birth to a baby conceived by rape, keep, love and cherish the child, but that should not be something that is thrust upon her by the lack of options. As she's stated, Palin is against abortion, even for her fourteen year old daughter. Think about that. My goddaughter was eleven and had recently gone through puberty. That's more common all the time. Had he not killed her, had she conceived through that vile desecration of her innocence, how could we have told her that she now had to deal with it in the face of her growing stomach? She was still in grade school. I can't say what she would have wanted, but by all means, she should have had an option. I'm not saying she had to have an abortion, that wouldn't be pro-choice either. But she should have an option.
I think Palin is a most unfortunate choice. I question the family values of a woman who would be glad to leave an infant with Downs syndrome at home while she goes trekking across the country to pursue her own dreams. I abhor the thought of the skeletons in her closet, some of which are coming out. It's one thing to be identified as a religious conservative, it's quite another to see the fallout from that traipsing across the White House lawn. Harsh? Perhaps. Then again, I listened to an audio recording of her laughing as a radio dj made fun of one of her political opponents in Alaska. To quote Mammy in Gone with the Wind, "It ain't fittin', it just ain't fittin'."
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Conan The Westy
"Father, Faithful Friend, Fwiffer"
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Posted - 09/01/2008 : 22:58:40
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quote:
Originally posted by wildheartlivie
I think Palin is a most unfortunate choice. I question the family values of a woman who would be glad to leave an infant with Downs syndrome at home while she goes trekking across the country to pursue her own dreams. I abhor the thought of the skeletons in her closet, some of which are coming out. It's one thing to be identified as a religious conservative, it's quite another to see the fallout from that traipsing across the White House lawn. Harsh? Perhaps. Then again, I listened to an audio recording of her laughing as a radio dj made fun of one of her political opponents in Alaska. To quote Mammy in Gone with the Wind, "It ain't fittin', it just ain't fittin'."
Then don't vote for her.  |
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Sean
"Necrosphenisciform anthropophagist."
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Posted - 09/01/2008 : 23:10:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Conan The Westy
Surely rape victims deserve our support rather than being the rope in the tug-of-war between opposing worldviews.
Absolutely. Abortion should never have been a political issue. Whether or not a woman wants an abortion is not anybody else's business. An unwanted embryo has absolutely no value whatsoever - actually it has negative value, similar to an infected appendix or a tumour. And if a woman wants to get rid of it then nobody has any right to interfere, likewise they have no right to interfere if I decide to have my appendix removed. |
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Whippersnapper.
"A fourword thinking guy."
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Posted - 09/01/2008 : 23:12:26
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Conan,
You are making a lot of assumptions about my attitude to abortion. In fact, the only area we have been discussing here is how the law should apply to raped women. Nowhere here have I made any comment on how I think the law should apply in other cases.
I think we are all anti-rape, and sympathise with the victims. The specific issue I was discussing was what should happen when a raped women is made pregnant and wants an abortion. In that situation should the law say OK or NO?
Under these circumstances Palin says NO, even if you have been raped and want an abortion you cannot have one.
I disagree [I'm assuming that in rape cases the termination is almost always early], both on the moral grounds that the woman deserves to be able to terminate a pregnancy which was entirely forced upon her and also on the social grounds that a child brought up by a single mother who doesn't want that child is at high risk of psychological damage, as is the mother of course. To argue that this must happen because the foetus is innocent seems to me to be socially irresponsible because it ignores the foreseeable consequences of enforced pregnancy.
It would be interesting to know what your position is on this specific circumstance.
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Edited by - Whippersnapper. on 09/01/2008 23:14:57 |
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Topic |
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Hillary Clinton.
